SUBJECTS: Labor Leader’s COVID diagnosis; Labor’s plan to fix the crisis in aged care; Immigration policy; China-Solomons security pact; Australia’s engagement in the Pacific; The need for a National Anti-Corruption Commission; Kimberley Kitching. 
 
RAY HADLEY, HOST: I've mentioned through the course of the morning I'll be talking today to the Federal Opposition Leader, he's recovering at home still in isolation, Anthony Albanese, good morning to you. 

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning, Ray. How are you? 

HADLEY: Particularly well, but more importantly, how are you? Has it been a bad dose of the virus or a medium dose?

ALBANESE: Oh, I think a medium dose. From speaking to people, a lot of people have had it a lot worse. I haven't had any headaches, which is a good thing. People seem to report that as one of the real impacts that it has. But I have been tired, and you can probably hear, I'm a bit croaky this morning, and it has that impact on you. But I just have to take the health advice, Ray. I'm better off than so many Australians who've had it a lot worse than me. I'll be in isolation until Friday, and I hope that then I'm able to escape and get back out there physically on the campaign trail, because we have our campaign launch scheduled in Perth this Sunday. 

HADLEY: Okay. You can't hear everything I say, so I'll be upfront with you. I quite like you as an individual. We run into each other at football games, mainly –  

ALBANESE: We do.

HADLEY: And I think you're a good fella. I don't know whether you are the man. I know a lot of good fellas who should be the next Prime Minister, and that's not a reflection on you. But my concerns go back to the people you're surrounding yourself with, because I lived through them during the days of Rudd-Gillard-Rudd. I'm talking about people like Richard Marles, Kristina Keneally, Chris Bowen, and I could go on and on and on. But I've got to tell you, Anthony, I'm really concerned that if you become Prime Minister, you will be assisted by these people who led us down a path a number of years ago I don't want to go down again.

ALBANESE: Well Ray, I'm very proud of the team that I lead, and I'm proud of what I've done to present a mainstream, forward looking agenda for a Better Future. I want to deal with the challenges that are out there. Your listeners are doing it tough at the moment, with cost of living increases. They know that the price of everything is going up, except their wages aren't, and we need to address that. We have practical plans through cheaper childcare, cheaper electricity. By dealing with the crisis in aged care, we had a Royal Commission and we haven't responded appropriately to the recommendations. I want to make more things here. I want a Future Made in Australia. I really believe one of the lessons of the pandemic is that we're vulnerable, our economy, if we remain at the end of supply chains. We need to be able to stand on our own two feet, and that is what I want to do, and I have a plan to do it through a National Reconstruction Fund, by having fee-free TAFE, so that we train Australians for the jobs that are available, additional university places. I think that we can have a better future, but we need a better government.

HADLEY: Okay, we've just being joined by Laura Jayes on Sky News, so welcome to Laura and her viewers, who are taking this live. You mentioned the Royal Commission. You announced just before the election was called that you would install registered nurses 24/7. Mark Dreyfus went on the ABC shortly after that and said, well hang on a sec, we don't have enough nurses for a start, and we can't pay the bill to install them there. What's your position now? I know the Royal Commission recommended things, but they have to be affordable and achievable. 

ALBANESE: Well, it's both affordable and achievable. The truth is that the first priority we have to do is stop nurses and aged care workers leaving the sector, and that's what's going on. They're leaving the sector because of the conditions which are there, and the Royal Commission found that. These recommendations that we're saying, our five-point plan - 24/7 nurses, 215 minutes of care, increasing aged care workforce, better food nutrition using the Maggie Beer Foundation, and more transparency and accountability for providers for every dollar spent. These are all directly from the Royal Commission, based upon the evidence, based upon what's achievable. Now 80 per cent of nurses in aged care are currently working part time. They want more work, but they can't get it due to the nature of the way the sector is operating. We do need to train more nurses and aged care workers. We do need to stop people leaving the sector, and we just need to do better, Ray. We're talking about the cost, two and a half billion dollars is our cost, over four years, that's half, less than half actually, of the five and a half billion dollars that was wasted on subs that produced nothing but a torn-up contract. The question is, do older Australians deserve dignity and respect in their later years? My answer to that is yes, and I'm determined to make sure that we deliver it. 

HADLEY: Well, you better make sure you tell Mark Dreyfus that's the policy because he contradicted you. Now, you had a disastrous first week, I don't want to reinvent history. There was the cash rate, there were the unemployment, there were the nurse numbers, Jonathan Lea raised that question with you. There's a whole range of other things by your own admissions. You apologised for making mistakes, I challenge you that you didn't make mistakes, I challenge you you didn't know the answers. You didn't know it was 4 per cent, you had a guess when Andrew Clennell put it on you. You said oh 5.2, 5.4, I don't know. Now, you've got to be better informed. If you're gonna lead this country, post-May 21, mate, you've got to be in control of these things, and you can't try to think off the top your head, you've got to be briefed about this sort of stuff. Who didn't brief you? 

ALBANESE: Well, I did know the figures, Ray, I had –

HADLEY: It didn't look like it.

ALBANESE: I accept that Ray, and I'll put my hand up. I'll tell you what I'll do, Ray, and this is something that the bloke I'm running against will never do. If I commit a mistake, and I just had a blank at that time – 

HADLEY: It wasn’t a mistake. 

ALBANESE: Yes, it was. Yes, it was. I just went blank. It just happened. From time to time, if any anyone hasn't ever made a mistake, it's not me. I'll concede it. I took responsibility, I put my hand up, I did that. I didn't try to blame someone else, I didn’t try to blame an adviser, or blame a state government, or blame persons unknown. You know, what people expect from their leaders isn't perfection, I'm human. What they expect though, is that they'll take responsibility for the things that count. I'll tell you what I didn't forget, I didn't forget to order enough vaccines. I didn't forget to turn up in the bushfires. I didn't forget to respond to flood victims. I didn't forget to have Rapid Antigens Tests on order –  

HADLEY: You did go to Perth when Marrickville was underwater.

ALBANESE: Even there, Ray – 

HADLEY: No, no, no, no. You're challenging the Prime Minister because he went to Hawaii with his wife and two kids, okay? You're reinventing history. You went to Perth when it reopened when your electorate was underwater.

ALBANESE: That's not right, Ray. Have a look at the map mate.

HADLEY: What, Marrickville wasn't flooding?

ALBANESE: The Liberal Party put out photos of the electorate of Barton, which is where the Cooks River is, that area is not in my electorate anymore. I don't have any rivers flowing through my electorate. None. 

HADLEY: Adjoining your electorate? 

ALBANESE: Yeah, of course, adjoining my electorate. Of course. But I went to Lismore, I went to Brisbane, I went to Murwillumbah, I went to Ballina, I went to Byron. I turn up, Ray.  I turn up, Ray. But when I have an appointment for work, I also turn up and fulfill the commitments that I give. I've never broken a commitment with you, Ray, as you know, and we've known each other for decades now, for a long period of time. 

HADLEY: It's only that we've both survived long enough. Now. Let me let me go back –

ALBANESE: That's exactly right, Ray, and both of us will still be around for a while yet. 

HADLEY: Okay, let's go back to memory. You have said repeatedly you were the Deputy Prime Minister when offshore processing was legislated. Now, just because I know you want to apologise when you make mistakes, you were Deputy Prime Minister between June and September 2013. The offshore processing was legislated in August of 2012 when you were not the Deputy Prime Minister. 

ALBANESE: No, I haven't said when it was legislated. 

HADLEY: Yes, you have. Yes, you have. 

ALBANESE: Ray, it was when the agreement was done with Papua New Guinea under Prime Minister Rudd. That's what occurred. That's when Prime Minister Rudd and myself, at a press conference, said that if you come to Australia by boat, you will not be allowed to settle in Australia. That was when that policy came in.

HADLEY: Offshore processing was legislated as I'll show you now,

JOURNALIST (AUDIO CLIP): When people smugglers seek to take advantage of an incoming Labor government and do send more boats, will you be tough on boat turn backs and will you consider an offshore resettlement deal? 

ALBANESE (AUDIO CLIP): We'll turn boats back. Turning boats back means that you don't need offshore detention.

HADLEY: Okay, well you've corrected that one. Let's get to the next one economics...yeah go on.

ALBANESE: That's what the government itself have said, Ray, that they haven't put people into offshore detention because the boat turn back policy worked. We support boat turn backs. We support offshore processing, we support settlement in third countries, and we would have done the deal with New Zealand that was done far earlier and not implemented by this government until just before the election.

HADLEY: Well, let me just say this to you, you would have heard this many times, I know you're a listener. 

*sound plays* 

HADLEY: I played that day after day after day, sometimes twice a day, when you were in government previously. Now, you just said you support boat turn backs where possible, offshore processing. What sort of visa will you give the people when they start arriving sometime in June or July if you're Prime Minister? What visa will they get?

ALBANESE: Under what circumstances?

HADLEY: Well, exactly the same circumstance when I blow that horn. There's a boat off Northern Australia, okay, it can't be turned back so they come to Australia – 

ALBANESE: Well they won't come to Australia.

HADLEY: Where will they go?

ALBANESE: They won't come to Australia, they'll be settled –

HADLEY: Where will they go?

ALBANESE: Well Nauru, offshore. 

HADLEY: What, they'll go straight from the boat to Nauru will they? Good luck. 

ALBANESE: Offshore. Offshore – 

HADLEY: Good luck. 

ALBANESE: We will have the same – 

HADLEY: Anthony, you know, Anthony, you know – 

ALBANESE: We will have the same policy, the same policy as the government has, Ray. 

HADLEY: No you won't, because you won't have Temporary Protection Visas because you're terrified of what Kristina Keneally and Penny Wong will do to you if you do have them. You know the only way to stop the boats is to have a three-pronged attack. What visa will you give these people? What visa, Anthony? 

ALBANESE: We won’t give them a visa. 

HADLEY: What you’re gonna take them straight from the vessel onto another vessel and take them to Nauru, are you? Is that what you're gonna do?

ALBANESE: They will not be allowed to settle in Australia. 

HADLEY: But how are you going to achieve that? 

ALBANESE: In the same way that the government does.

HADLEY: They give them a Temporary Protection Visa because they can't access the immigration system with a Temporary Protection Visa. You'll have to give them a Bridging Visa. 

ALBANESE: That's not right. 

HADLEY: How are you going to physically, all of a sudden Border Force they ring up the Defence Minister Richard Marles - God spare my days - they ring him up and say, 'oh mate', or Kristina, Home Affairs Minister, 'we've got a boat here', what do you...take it to Nauru, tow it to Nauru. That's just fanciful. 

ALBANESE: The same policy that exists now, Operation Sovereign Borders, will apply under us.

HADLEY: No, it won't. Because you don't have Temporary Protection Visas. 

ALBANESE: Yes, it will 

HADLEY: No, it won't. 

ALBANESE: Yes, it will.

HADLEY: I lived through it, Anthony.

ALBANESE: Ray, Temporary Protection Visas, are there for people who've been here prior to 2013.

HADLEY: No, no. Look, don't call it Operation Sovereign Borders, invented by Morrison in concert with Jim Molan, because it's not Operation Sovereign Borders, along with Abbott. It's your watered-down version of it. Okay, we move on because we can't agree on that. Now, I've asked emailers to tell me what they want to ask you. Here's the best one, on coal mining. Do we believe Chris Bowen, Pat Conroy or Anthony Albanese? We can't believe all three. So what are you going to do with these 215 companies who qualify to pay some sort of Carbon Tax, according to Chris Bowen and denied by Pat Conroy, then agreed to by Chris Bowen, who's right? You, them or anyone else?

ALBANESE: Our policy is right. Ray, and by the way, that policy of safeguards mechanism is the one that was introduced by Tony Abbott. It applies to the same companies, to exactly the same companies, not to one company more. 

HADLEY: Okay, well, let's get this out of the way. 

JULIA GILLARD, FORMER PRIME MINISTER (AUDIO CLIP): There will be no Carbon Tax under the government I lead. 

HADLEY: One of your predecessors said that. Can you say that today with some clarity? 

ALBANESE: Absolutely.

HADLEY: Could you say it for me, so I've got it on record, please. 

ALBANESE: Well, we will have no Carbon Tax. 

HADLEY: No well, let's just make sure. There'll be no Carbon Tax under any government I lead, ever. 

ALBANESE: There will be no Carbon Tax, ever. 

HADLEY: No Carbon Tax ever? Okay, well, that's obviously on tape so...yeah, go on. 

ALBANESE: What I think has happened, Ray, is that, and we're seeing it happen in reality now, and you know that this was the case, is how many new coal-fired power stations have started on this government's watch? New coal-fired power stations.

HADLEY: Ah – 

ALBANESE: None

HADLEY: No. 

ALBANESE: None. Because what's happening now is that the cheapest form of new energy is renewables, and that's where the investment is going. That's why our policy has been supported by the Business Council of Australia, the Australian Industry Group, the National Farmers Federation, by the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry as well as the ACTU. That is where the investment is going, and what business is saying is that they want certainty going forward. This government have announced 22 different energy policies and haven't landed one of them, not one.

HADLEY: Now, I'm glad you raised climate change. Solomon Islands. You said, Tanya Plibersek said, Penny Wong said, the reason that we have the problem with the Solomon Islands at the moment is because we didn't talk turkey with them about climate change. So, having not talked turkey about climate change, what do the Solomon Islands? Do they sign a deal with the world's biggest emitter, China. So how can our negligent attitude towards climate change with the Solomon Islands force them into the arms of the world's biggest emitter? How does that work?

ALBANESE: Well, the fact is that we've dropped the ball, Ray on so many areas – 

HADLEY: No, no. You said climate change, Anthony. 

ALBANESE: No, no –

HADLEY: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. 

ALBANESE: No Ray, they say climate change – 

HADLEY: No, you said – 

ALBANESE: They say, in their statements, when the Pacific, including Australia, have got together, guess what they have to say? They say, consistently, that climate change is the number one issue, and the government itself says well, we can't compete with China when it comes to money. That's what I've heard government ministers say over the last couple of days. What we need to do is to show them some respect. Now the Pacific leaders in the declaration, 2018, said this: "we affirm that climate change remains the single greatest threat to the livelihood, security and wellbeing of the people of the Pacific, and our commitment to progress the implementation of the Paris Agreement”. Australia signed up to that declaration. Australia signed up to that. Our Pacific family, for them, they all remember that video footage of Peter Dutton and Scott Morrison warning about the boom mic, standing under it, making a joke about rising sea levels in the Pacific. Well for them it is a major threat. It is an absolute priority. 

HADLEY: Anthony, you know Prime Minister Sogavare, he'll driving around in a Ferrari in some South American country in another five years because he's had his pockets lined by the Chinese. Now I know you probably can't say that because Richard would be horrified he won't be able to have yum cha with President Xi in the future, but that's what's happened. They've lined the pockets of the Solomon Islands Parliament, with Sogavare, and off they trot with all the money. It’s got bugger all to do with climate change, you know that. 

ALBANESE: Ray, it has got to do with a whole range of issues. The point is that Australia has been – 

HADLEY: Well, hang on, hang on.

ALBANESE: – the security partner of choice. Of choice. This has happened under our nose, and Scott Morrison hasn't bothered to pick up the phone to Prime Minister Sogavare. Hasn't picked up the phone, no visits – 

HADLEY: He's too busy talking to President Xi.  

ALBANESE: Prime Minister Morrison? Is that right?

HADLEY: No, no, I'm talking about Mr. Sogavare. He's too interested in getting the money into the Swiss bank account somewhere. I mean, fair dinkum. 

ALBANESE: The United States sent a really serious delegation to the Solomons, led by Kurt Campbell – 

HADLEY: And what happened? They signed the deal with China, because they're getting money off them.

ALBANESE: It happened under our nose.

HADLEY: You could send Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin if you wanted to, it wouldn't make one bit of a difference. They signed the deal because they're getting their pockets lined. Now, back to Richard Marles. He seemed to think the best way of dealing with China is to get down to the Golden Century when it reopens and have yum cha with President Xi. He said, the man that would be Deputy Prime Minister and maybe the Defence Minister, he said in August last year, "it would be wrong to suggest that Australia has not properly allocated resources to its relationship with the Pacific. On the contrary, we're genuinely present in the region. Maintaining formal relations with all of the Pacific nations and a diplomatic presence with 15 of the 17 PIF members." August 2021. All of a sudden, politically it doesn't suit the narrative, so you go in another direction as a party.

ALBANESE: Well that's not right, Ray.

HADLEY: What do you mean, it's not right? It's what he said?

ALBANESE: Well, we have been saying, for some period of time, that the cut in aid was having an impact. That our failure to engage appropriately in the Pacific was having an impact, and we know that it has. We know that China has changed, Ray. We know that China is forward leaning in the region. They're trying to increase their influence in the region. What that requires, is a response. Not a dropping of the ball, a response.

HADLEY: And what will your response be? If you're Prime Minister and next year President Xi says, 'look, we need a base here in the Solomon Islands', what's your response going to be then? What are you going to say to President Xi? Or what are you going to get Richard Marles to say to him?

ALBANESE: Well, we will respond with our partners in the United States and our other partners – 

HADLEY: In what way will you respond? 

ALBANESE: Well, what we'll be about, Ray, is stopping it. 

HADLEY: How are you going to stop it? They're lining the pockets of Sogavare and his cronies over there, so they can do exactly that. What are you going to do? Stamp your feet and say, 'how dare you come to the Solomon Islands? This is disgraceful, we won't have yum cha with you anymore at the Golden Century’.

ALBANESE: No. We'll do what's necessary to stop it, and one of the ways that we'll do that is through our announcement today with our Stronger Pacific policy. A comprehensive plan to engage with our neighbours in the Pacific, to engage with development assistance – 

HADLEY: But we're only doing that according to Richard Marles in August last year.

ALBANESE: No, that's not right. That's just not right, Ray. 

HADLEY: Well, that's what he said. He said that last year.

ALBANESE: Ray, I know that our opponents can dig out sentences out of context. This is what Scott Morrison said: "China provides a real stability to the region". That's what Scott Morrison was saying a few years ago. Quote unquote – 

HADLEY: Mr. Marles said this about the Pacific in August last year. 

ALBANESE: This is the Prime Minister. This is what Scott Morrison said as Prime Minister: "The infrastructure needs of the region are enormous and Australia welcomes the contribution that the Belt and Road Initiative can make to regional infrastructure investment and to regional development". That's what he said. This is what Minister Hawke said, the minister in charge of the Pacific said in 2019: "We'll work with China if they want to cooperate on health, development, positive goals for Pacific countries". So Ray – 

HADLEY: Yeah, but we've all admitted, and you've admitted it, that they've changed the narrative. China's changed in the four years since then. Have they not changed? Well three years, actually. 

ALBANESE: But these are ministers, the Prime Minister himself. There's this game gone on from the government of trying to selectively distort quotes out of context. But the bottom line is that this has happened on Australia's watch. Australia's response was not to send any serious delegation. They sent Senator Zed Seselja. Every time I hear Zed I just think about Pulp Fiction. They sent him across to the Solomons, a fortnight ago, when it was all over. This has been discussed for some time. You had ministers going on the TV, including Minister Payne, saying it was all under control, and quite clearly it wasn't. 

HADLEY: Quite clearly, the Americans took a different tack and with the same result, and you won't admit that it's all about money. It's not about climate change. It's not about what Sogavare may have said. It's about money. It's about filthy lucre. It's about putting money in their pockets and kowtowing to the Chinese because they've paid them off. In the same way members of your party copped brown paper bags in New South Wales to do deals with the Chinese. Thousands of dollars, and the ICAC is testimony to that. There's been an unholy link between the Labor Party and the Chinese for years. You know that. 

ALBANESE: Oh Ray, come on. In terms of ICAC, mate, there's been quite a few people on both sides, and that's a good thing that that's been exposed. 

HADLEY: Ok, good.

ALBANESE: You know the difference, Ray? 

HADLEY: What's that?

ALBANESE: I want accountability at the national level as well, through a National Anti-Corruption Commission, something that Scott Morrison is running a million miles from.

HADLEY: You would know that the ICAC in New South Wales, and the counterparts in other states, deal with local government and state government issues. There's very little to be dealt with in the federal government sphere. Now, I'll ask you the question, how many Liberal politicians are in jail at the moment in New South Wales because of their corruption?

ALBANESE: Well, anyone that's corrupt should be in jail – 

HADLEY: No, no, I'll give you the answer: none. Two blokes who put Kristina Keneally into power in the early part of 2011. Two blokes are in jail. Macdonald and Obeid are in jail, and Kristina Keneally, your pinup girl in Fowler, she led Labor to the worst ever electoral defeat since Federation. She got down to a 25 per cent vote. She took on John Alexander, got lapped. She got lapped. Now you've parachuted her from Scotland Island out to Fowler to inflict her on the people. Has she got photos of someone in the Labor Party? What's the deal with her?

ALBANESE: Kristina Keneally is a friend of mine – 

HADLEY: No, no, no, I've heard all this before. I know what you really think. So, let's not play games about, you know, 'she's a friend of mine', and she's this and she's that.

ALBANESE: Well, I think she has enormous capacity. Enormous capacity - 

HADLEY: Well, ask Chris Minns what he thinks, he's still trying to repair the damage she did from 2011.

ALBANESE: And Chris Minns will make a fantastic Premier. 

HADLEY: Well I don't doubt that. I think he's a much better option than his predecessor as far as the Labor Party is concerned. Just in conclusion, because we've taken enough of your time and I realise you're crook and I do appreciate it. But do you understand that even if you're elected Prime Minister, post May 21, you're going to deal, as Mr. Morrison will deal with, a hostile Senate? How do you deal with the Greens, maybe Nick Xenophon, a couple from Tasmania? How do you deal with them? Even if you've got to deal with someone to get to the position of Prime Minister in the Lower House in the first place? How do you deal with a hostile Senate?

ALBANESE: Well, I'm hoping to have a majority Labor Government in the House of Reps and in the Senate, whoever is in power will have to deal with a Senate. That's what we deal with now. That's what we deal with now. The Government doesn't have a majority in the Senate. The only time that a government has had a majority in both houses, we ended up with Work Choices, and workers’ wages being cut, and workers conditions being attacked under John Howard, and quite frankly, that's one of the things that led to his demise in 2007.

HADLEY: You've just mentioned a federal ICAC, I'll leave you this one. If in fact, you're the Prime Minister, and you get your way and there'll be a federal ICAC or equivalent, will you ask them to investigate the allegations that there was bullying - workplace bullying - by Senators Wong, Keneally and Gallagher against the late Senator Kitching. Will you ask them to do that?

ALBANESE: I won't ask them to investigate anything, Ray. That's the whole point. They will be independent and won't be controlled by politics. That's as it should be. 

HADLEY: Would you individually, as Prime Minister, stand up and say you won't tolerate the sort of workplace bullying subjected to Kimberley Kitching?

ALBANESE: Well, I don't accept the characterisation that you've just given, Ray. I think that - 

HADLEY: What, did she lie during her life that she was bullied?

ALBANESE: I think that Kimberley Kitching's death was far too early and is a tragedy and - 

HADLEY: There's no doubt about that. But we're talking about when she was alive and she was bullied by those people and others in the Senate. She was ostracised, she was put to one side. I'm not saying it played a role in her death. What I'm saying is she was treated dreadfully.

ALBANESE: Ray, I appointed Kimberley Kitching, no one else. I appointed her to the frontbench and she maintained a frontbench position whilst I was the Leader. Now whether someone was on the Parliamentary Tactics Committee of either the House of Reps or the Senate, people go on and off those committees all of the time. I myself went off the Committee after 2013.

HADLEY: You've been off a few times in relation to your own party, and you're still there, which is testimony to you - 

ALBANESE: Well mate, I'm still here. I'm still having a crack because I think this is a great country, the best country on Earth. I love it dearly. I'm passionate about making a difference. That's why I'm running for Prime Minister. I want to make a difference to this country.

HADLEY: I thank you for making your time available when you're still crook. I appreciate it, and I hope you get well soon, okay?

ALBANESE: Thanks, Ray. All the best. 

HADLEY: All the best, thank you. Anthony Albanese, the Federal Opposition Leader. 

ENDS