SUBJECTS: Newspoll; Federal election; Labor’s policy agenda; schools reopening; state borders; acknowledging mistakes in politics; Kurri Kurri gas plant; climate change; Morrison Government’s failures during the COVID-19 pandemic.
 
JOHN LAWS, HOST: The first Newspoll opinion poll of the year was an undeniable disaster for the Prime Minister. Horrible. The Coalition's primary vote fell two points while Labor is up three. The Government trails Labor 44-56 on the two-party preferred measure. And Scott Morrison's net satisfaction plunged 11 points. He's still preferred Prime Minister at 43 per cent. But Anthony Albanese, having risen five points since the last poll, is only two points behind. And Anthony Albanese hopefully joins me on the line. Are you there, Anthony Albanese?
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: I am, John. Good to be with you.
 
LAWS: How are you doing?
 
ALBANESE: I'm doing pretty well. It's a bit of a rainy, old miserable day here in Sydney though, of course. I got a bit wet this morning. I was at a school, Our Lady of Mt Carmel at Waterloo, with Tanya Plibersek, talking about giving support to kids going back to school after the couple of tough years that they've had with COVID, and talking about the need to give some investment for outdoor learning and for air conditioning and other capital funding in order to keep children safe as they go back to school.
 
LAWS: Very good. I hope you didn't get too wet in that rain. Because I noticed that you're doing your hair differently or something. And I'd hate your hair to get messed up.
 
ALBANESE: It is exactly the same, really, John. I have had the same bloke cut my hair for about 15 years. I'm just getting less, like many of us as we get older, a little bit less hair than I had 15 years ago.
 
LAWS: But there was something. Have you got new glasses?
 
ALBANESE: I have.
 
LAWS: Oh, that's what it was. I knew there was something different about you.
 
ALBANESE: I tried on my glasses and I went into the same optometrist in Marrickville Road that I've been to for a long period of time, picked out a pair of glasses that are a bit different from the pairs that I have worn in recent years, just for a bit of a change. And I find it remarkable how much commentary there's been on my new glasses. But George Tsenkas there in Marrickville Road, a lovely bloke. He's quite pleased that he's got a little bit more prominence there. He is just a local optometrist. And he's a good fellow. It took about two minutes to pick them. So, I obviously just picked the right one.
 
LAWS: Well, I'll tell you what, Albo, you have just given the optometrist in Marrickville about a million dollars' worth of advertising. I don't mind, he's probably a good bloke, George.
 
ALBANESE: He is a good bloke. He's like many Marrickville small business people going back. He, of course, is Greek origin. And he is just a local business person who, of course, like everyone, has been doing it a bit tough. So, I wish him, and to all small business people listening to the program here, all the best. They've been working hard during the pandemic. And it's been a tough time for business.
 
LAWS: The polls are very similar in the lead-up to the 2019 election campaign, aren't they? The Coalition somehow still won. Do you trust the latest figures?
 
ALBANESE: Look, I will leave the commentating on the polls, but I think the lesson that people have learned is that the only poll that matters is the one on election day. And that's a little while off. So, I'll continue to be working very hard to hold the Government to account, but also to put forward the positive alternatives, like I was talking about at the school with Tanya Plibersek this morning, and what I've done this year already. I've spent a few days in Newcastle and then ten days driving in Queensland from Cairns all the way down to Maryborough. We went to 20 different towns and cities there in Queensland's regions. And I was back in Victoria for a few days last week.
 
LAWS: Well, you've got to do it, haven't you? The Greens keep talking up their hopes of a power-sharing arrangement with Labor after the next election. If such a deal was the difference between you taking the keys to the Lodge and not taking the keys to the Lodge, would you do a deal with the Greens to form government?
 
ALBANESE: No, put simply. They talk themselves up. They have one member of the House of Representatives. The same number as Bob Katter and Helen Haines and Rebekha Sharkie, and all of the crossbenchers, of which there's a whole range of them there. Look, I am searching for a majority Labor Government, that is what I'm campaigning for. I am determined to get that. I want the certainty that is there. But if the circumstances arose, they would have a choice. They could have Scott Morrison as Prime Minister, or myself. And that would be a matter for them. But I think if you look back in 2013, when I became Deputy Prime Minister and Kevin Rudd was the Prime Minister, we didn't do any deals with anyone. We just said, 'Well, it's up to you. If you want to vote for a no confidence motion tomorrow, you can do that'. And I would have exactly the same attitude. It's a bit of them talking themselves up, basically. But the truth is that there are two options for governments in Australia after the next election. A Liberal-National Government, which is, of course, a Coalition, and we've seen the Coalition split up and have disagreements between them. The only political party that can form government in its own right after the next election is the Labor Party. We are the biggest party in the Parliament now. And were the only political party that can get to 76 seats.
 
LAWS: Okay, we've got to move on because you give us long answers. I appreciate the fact that you're giving us the detail. But we got to move on. At the National Press Club yesterday, the Prime Minister conceded that he'd made some mistakes over the handling of COVID among other things, I might say. Do you concede that in your time as Deputy Prime Minister and other minister roles, that you've made mistakes?
 
ALBANESE: All people, all human beings, make mistakes.
 
LAWS: That's not an answer.
 
ALBANESE: Well, yes, all human beings make mistakes. The problem with the Prime Minister yesterday is that he couldn't bring himself to say sorry. And the question is whether you learned from your mistakes. And the problem here is that the Prime Minister didn't learn from the flaws in the rollout of the vaccine. And we've had exactly the same problems with the rollout of rapid antigen tests and the rollout of booster shots.
 
LAWS: But look, saying you made mistakes, that's a statement in itself, which surely is enough? Did he have to say sorry?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I think it would have been appropriate for him to do so. But what would have been better is if, having made a mistake, he then learned from it, not repeated it. And the problem here is that the same mistakes keep being repeated over and over again. And it doesn't matter whether it's the bushfire response, or the rollout of vaccines, or the looking after people in aged care. This Prime Minister always acts too little, too late.
 
LAWS: Have you ever made mistakes?
 
ALBANESE: Yes.
 
LAWS: Have you apologised for them?
 
ALBANESE: If it was appropriate, yes.
 
LAWS: That's good. You're qualifying it, but you're still answering it. That's fine. The Prime Minister conceded that he had made mistakes over the handling of COVID. You must admit that mistakes have been made, and constantly have been made. When you were Deputy Prime Minister, when you had other ministerial roles, you must have made mistakes.
 
ALBANESE: Well, I've said that's the case. But there wasn't, in terms of, I was a Minister, John, for six years, a senior Cabinet Minister. I was Deputy Prime Minister, I was Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Local Government, Communications. And I've been the Leader of the Labor Party, now in my third year, and there hasn't been any significant attack on my record as a Minister. My record as a Minister is something that I am very proud of. I am proud that we made a difference in infrastructure development, in the creation of Infrastructure Australia, investment in local projects, more investment in public transport.
 
LAWS: We can't have an election speech, it will keep going too long. To Western Australia, what do you make of this Mark McGowan fellow?
 
ALBANESE: I think he has kept West Australian safe. And he received a remarkable endorsement. for his performances as Premier at the last election. A remarkable performance that reduced the Liberal Party and the National Party over there to just a couple of members each. It's quite extraordinary, the support that he's received.
 
LAWS: Do you seriously endorse his approach to the virus, effectively trying to secede from the rest of the country?
 
ALBANESE: Well, that's not right, John. One of the things that has happened in Western Australia is that he has kept his population safe. They've kept going to work, they've kept going to school, they've kept going to the pub, they've kept going to sporting activities. And they have been the most successful economy in the country. And that success of the economy has contributed taxes that have kept Australians, wherever they live, in support for health and education and other things that governments need to expend the revenue on.
 
LAWS: But the big taxes in the West come from iron ore. It has got nothing to do with McGowan.
 
ALBANESE: But they do, John. Let me tell you that if you haven't COVID outbreak, then people aren't going to work. That's what has happened in a range of areas. And that is one of the reasons why Mark McGowan has taken strong action to keep people safe. If you have an outbreak in a mine, then you have restrictions, just like you've had restrictions and shutdowns of industries in other states.
 
LAWS: Okay. But in New South Wales and Victoria, we're all going off to work. And the states are open. They're not locked down like Western Australia is.
 
ALBANESE: WA isn't locked down. In WA, people are going to work, they're going to school, they're going to universities. The aged care homes in WA are open for relatives to see their loved ones.
 
LAWS: But they are locking out the rest of Australia.
 
ALBANESE: Correct. And that's a difficult and tough decision. And no one wants any restrictions to be there for one day more than necessary. But people have made decisions, just as every state government have made decisions to lock people out, New South Wales has done the same at times, Victoria, Queensland, every state. And I haven't been critical of any of the state governments that have made decisions, whether they be Labor or Liberal-lead, because I think that the premiers have had difficult jobs. And at times, they've made decisions that are difficult. And I know it's very difficult for people who want to travel to WA. I was due to travel there this Saturday, on the day that they opened up. But I understand the decision-making process which is there. And one of the things I haven't done is do what the Prime Minister has done, which is look at different state governments, and if they happen to be led by the other political party, be critical. South Australia was locked down for a very long period of time, as well as Tasmania made an announcement of locking down very early on for a considerable period of time. And that's a decision that they made. I wasn't critical of it. And I don't think that it helps to do this, 'Because you're on the other side of politics, I'm going to criticise you and pretend that the same thing happening in another state is somehow any different'.
 
LAWS: Why the backflip with your newfound support for gas power plant in Kurri Kurri? You are obviously worried about seats like Paterson and the Hunter Valley generally, I assume. Am I correct?
 
ALBANESE: No, you're not, John. We made it very clear why we made that decision. We think that the system that was proposed by the Government was flawed. And not just we think that, people like the Head of the Energy Security Board in Australia, appointed by the Coalition Government, Kerry Schott, said the same thing. So did Matt Kean, the New South Wales Treasurer, about the proposal, because they're worried about it being a stranded asset and not producing sustainable jobs. But contracts have been issued. And we're not into creating sovereign risk. And so, we had to look at - how do you make what's a flawed model better and make it work? And that's why the transition to green hydrogen, up to 30 per cent immediately, which Snowy, the company involved, which is a government-owned entity, says can be available from the beginning of the opening, is the right way to go, and then to transform the project to drive a green hydrogen industry in the Hunter.
 
LAWS: Okay. But tell me this, how much will it cost to retrofit the whole thing for green hydrogen?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it will cost up to $700 million over the entire period. That's at the high end. But that, of course, is off-budget. And the potential for the creation of a green hydrogen energy industry, for not just domestic purposes, but for export purposes, has incredible opportunities for Australia going forward.
 
LAWS: But what if that technology fails to materialise?
 
ALBANESE: Well, all of the experts in the energy sector say that this is going to be a very significant industry going forward. That's why you're seeing proposals from Twiggy Forrest in Port Kembla, that is why you see proposals in South Australia, WA, in Gladstone in Queensland, that this is technology that we know has a very bright future. This is where the entire globe is looking at investing and supporting. And this Government, at the last election, said that the idea of a hydrogen industry was snake oil. And the truth is that now, they're saying the opposite. It's a bit like their argument that electric vehicle would end the weekend.
 
LAWS: That's right.
 
ALBANESE: It's just a nonsense. We need to look at where future industries are going to grow and put Australia in a position to secure maximum economic advantage from it.
 
LAWS: Okay. Look, we're about to run out of time. But could you answer this for me? I know you a bit, I have sat and talked to you a bit, not interviewed you, but sat and talk and enjoyed the time I sat and talked to you. Why do you insist on attacking the man himself? I mean, don't you think saying that Scott Morrison can't hold a hose and doesn't give a RATs, don't you think that's childish for the man who would like to be the Prime Minister of this country?
 
ALBANESE: He said that, John. John Laws said it.
 
LAWS: No, John Laws didn't say it.
 
ALBANESE: Sorry, Scott Morrison said it. It wasn't on your program. It was on another radio station in Sydney. He rang in from Hawaii and said, 'I don't hold a hose, mate'. That is his term. And he hasn't given rapid antigen test to people. And we are saying that should occur. And yesterday, he couldn't say how much they cost. And the truth is that a failure to provide support for RATs, that's been provided by the UK Government, in Singapore, in the United States and other parts of the world, because it's a key to keeping people at work. And I note the New South Wales Liberal Government have a scheme of providing RATs effectively through the rebate system to small businesses to provide to workers in New South Wales in order to keep the economy going. And the Federal Liberal Government have refused to cooperate with the New South Wales Liberal Government on that issue.
 
LAWS: Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it does. You have a Federal Government that don't seem to get on with their own counterparts in New South Wales and that have been complacent. And we've seen real economic consequences. They told people who were concession cardholders that they could go to their local chemist and get a RAT for free.
 
LAWS: And they couldn't do it. Anthony Albanese, I've got to leave you because of time constraints. But I've enjoyed talking to you, as I always do. And I hope we get to talk to each other again soon.
 
ALBANESE: Terrific, John. Always good to talk with you.
 
LAWS: Thank you very much Anthony Albanese. Nice man, good talker, has some good ideas as well.
 
ENDS