SUBJECTS: Doherty modelling; COVID outbreaks around Australia; lockdowns; vaccine rollout; need for national quarantine facilities; Labor’s $300 cash incentive for COVID vaccination; Scott Morrison acting too little, too late. 

JOHN LAWS, HOST: I have got Anthony Albanese on the line. And I don't like to keep him waiting. He is a very important man, Federal Opposition Leader. Very important. We need strong opposition and Albo gives it to us. Good morning, Anthony Albanese. 

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning, John. Good to be with you again. 

LAWS: How are you doing? Are you alright? 

ALBANESE: I'm doing okay. Speaking to you from Canberra lockdown, where it's been in lockdown for a while. But of course, half the country unfortunately is in lockdown. This is difficult times. But I've got my job and I've got my health. So all is good in the world compared with so many people doing it really tough. 

LAWS: And they really are. They're having a pretty tough time. But at least we can think about them. But that's about all we can do. Still, it will improve, it can't get worse. Well, I shouldn't say that. It might get worse. 

ALBANESE: We certainly hope that it doesn't. You know, I've lost five constituents in the last few weeks, including a couple of people who were known to me, the Ibrahims, lovely people who came to Australia to make Australia their home, raised eight kids, they had 53 grandchildren. 

LAWS: My God.

ALBANESE: They've certainly made a contribution to this country. And unfortunately, both of them fell victim to this dreadful disease in the one week. Other members of their family who live with them have also caught COVID. And the tragedy, of course, at times like this, as well, is that everyone, of course, couldn't go to the funeral either, which is really tough for a close-knit family. 

LAWS: That's horrible. And particularly, as you say, for a close-knit family. And those families are close-knit. That’s horrible. That's not a good story. But still, they're the times in which we are living. 

ALBANESE: Indeed, John. But let's just hope that we get the vaccination rates up. And let's hope that we can get on with a better future. And that's what we've got a responsibility to do as policymakers. It's good that people are getting out there and being vaccinated. We want to see those vaccination numbers continue to rise.

LAWS: We certainly do. It's very important that they do. Look, I've got to say, I think Scott Morrison has done a pretty good job. But I understand there were significant problems with the vaccine rollout. And I think he could also show a lot more strength when it comes to Afghanistan. He's going through a tough time. Do you have any sympathy for him? 

ALBANESE: Well, the problem is, John, that he always acts too little, too late. Whether it's bushfires, whether it's the issues of sexual harassment in Parliament House, whether it be the issue of the rollout of the vaccine, purpose-built quarantine facilities, the evacuation of people from Afghanistan, it's always a delay. And then the action, of course, is then during a crisis. If you actually act earlier, then the consequences are far better. You can't wait for there to be a crisis. And the truth is that our vaccination rates were the last in the developed world. We didn't do enough deals with enough pharmacy companies to get enough vaccines early enough.

LAWS: Why were we the last in the developed world? 

ALBANESE: Well, that's the big question. The Prime Minister said we were first in the queue. Pfizer, for example, approached the Government. There were negotiations last July. But we didn't do a deal with them until 34 countries got ahead of us with deals for more than a billion doses of the vaccine. And so our rollout was so slow because of supply. 

LAWS: We didn't have the vaccine till earlier this year. Which July are you talking about?

ALBANESE: July last year was when negotiations started. We did a deal with Pfizer in November of last year. We didn't get the vaccines and we didn't get enough supply of vaccines and enough of them. We have Moderna, finally, will be coming to Australia in coming months. But it's been rolled out around the world. 

LAWS: Okay, but in fairness, some of those deals were cancelled by the supplier. You can't blame the Prime Minister for that, as much as you'd like to, you can't, can you? 

ALBANESE: John, we didn't do enough deals for enough supply. There wasn't a deal cancelled by any supplier from Moderna. We just didn't do a deal to get Moderna here before the last quarter of this year.

LAWS: Moderna has only just been approved though, hasn't it?

ALBANESE: Here. But it's been rolled out everywhere around the world, John.

LAWS: Why were we late to it? You can't blame the Prime Minister as an individual for that. Why were we late rolling it out?

ALBANESE: The Government didn't do it and the Prime Minister has responsibility for the vaccines. And he said last year, this time last year, remember, John, he was saying we were at the front of the queue. The truth is we weren't at the front of the queue. It just wasn't true. We didn't do enough deals with enough companies to get enough vaccines early enough. And we also still haven't. There's a motion before the Parliament today in August. So we're in August 2021, we are now 20 months into this pandemic, and there's a motion before the Parliament today about building purpose-built quarantine facilities. Now, for goodness sake, we were saying this time last year you needed to deal with quarantine. That's where these outbreaks have come from. The current outbreak, of course, comes from a single limo driver driving a foreign air crew to hotel quarantine. He was unvaccinated. He wasn't wearing a mask. And as a result, we have half the country locked down and parts of New Zealand in lockdown as well. 

LAWS: We've got to remember that a FedEx person gave it to the limo driver. So I don't know that you can apportion blame anywhere. The whole thing is a mess. 

ALBANESE: But we needed to put in place appropriate quarantine facilities that are purpose-built. We know that thousands of people have been through the Howard Springs facility outside of Darwin safely because it's a labour camp that's been used. But you have facilities that aren't sharing ventilation systems, where people aren't on top of each other like they are in hotels. And the outbreaks, more than 27 of them, have come from hotel quarantine. And we can say that we should have been better at securing supply of the vaccines earlier.

LAWS: Except that wouldn't have made any difference to the Delta strain getting into Australia. I mean, the FedEx person wouldn't have gone into quarantine in one of those centres.

ALBANESE: The problem has come from outbreaks from quarantine, John. That's where the problems have come from. And the current outbreak comes from a foreign aircrew going with a limo driver when they arrived to Sydney Airport.

LAWS: Well, we've talked a lot about that. But how many from quarantine? Do you know?

ALBANESE: There have been at least 27 breaches of hotel quarantine that have led to outbreaks. The previous one in Victoria that led to lockdowns in May and June, a couple of months ago, came from hotel quarantine in Adelaide, where someone who didn't get COVID in India came back to Australia, went into hotel quarantine in Adelaide and caught COVID in hotel quarantine and then travelled to Melbourne. And that's where that outbreak came from.

LAWS: Twenty-seven breaches. I mean that is not a lot when tens of thousands have gone through quarantine, I would imagine. Over 100,000 people have come back to Australia. So 27 breaches isn't drastic, is it? 

ALBANESE: Every one of the breaches has had consequences. This current outbreak with the whole of New South Wales in lockdown, with the whole of the ACT in lockdown, with parts of Victoria in lockdown and New Zealand in lockdown, comes from a single breach. So the consequences are very severe indeed.

LAWS: There were more people fined at that religious service the other night. I think they fined 60 people there. That is a lot more than 27 breaches.

ALBANESE: Indeed, John. And that was a breach of the rules that are in place. But this outbreak, of course, originated from a breach of hotel quarantine. And that's where all of the outbreaks have come from, hotel quarantine and not having appropriate facilities in place. The Queensland Premier, for example, advanced Wellcamp, outside of Toowoomba, as an appropriate site last October. Last October. We're talking about 10 months ago. And nothing has happened there. There are no purpose-built facilities in New South Wales. And the outbreak in New South Wales as well, of course, when we had that breach and then we had the outbreak, which was around Bondi originally, the Federal Government congratulated Gladys Berejiklian in not locking down. What we know is that if action had been taken earlier, then this outbreak wouldn't have been as prolonged as it has been. It did get out and it spread around. And that's what happens if you don't take action appropriately. And again, it was too little and too late. And hence, your listeners today listen to this from their homes, different parts of Sydney, of course, including parts of my electorate who have a curfew and really strict restrictions because action wasn't taken soon enough.

LAWS: Do you really think that this $300 is going to make a vaccine sceptic get vaccinated? Do you think it will make a difference?

ALBANESE: It won't make an anti-vaxxer get vaccinated. 

LAWS: No, I don't believe it will. 

ALBANESE: Nor do I. But what it will do is provide an economic incentive for people who might be saying, 'I'll get vaccinated, but there's no rush', for people who are unsure and start conversations about it. It is the same reason why, John, Telstra are providing $200 for their employees as an economic incentive. The Health Services Union are providing incentives for their union members who work in aged care to be vaccinated. Qantas are providing frequent flyer points for people who are fully vaccinated and people going into a draw for much bigger prizes. Around the world, economic incentives and different incentives are being used. In Indonesia, you can get a chicken. In Hong Kong, eggs. In parts of the United States, you have everything from beer to financial incentives to free tuition at universities for students in a lottery form. There's a range of incentives being offered in order to encourage it. And what's more, is that at the moment, when the economy is really struggling, when small business is doing it tough, tying an economic incentive, economic stimulus, to a health outcome makes a lot of sense. Which is why we've put it forward constructively. Throughout the pandemic, we've been constructive. As you know, I was arguing for wage subsidies well before the Government adopted the JobKeeper program. And that was a big success. 

LAWS: It was a big success. New South Wales is pressing firmly ahead with reopening despite most other states dead against the idea. Do you think that Gladys Berejiklian is doing the right thing?

ALBANESE: Well, Gladys Berejiklian, of course, is in a difficult position. But we are considerably away from that 70 per cent figure. We've just reached 50 per cent of people having their first dose. So we're a fair way. We're not halfway there yet. What we need to do is to provide incentives. I note the New South Wales Government is supporting an activity, I think it's this weekend, with various sporting organisations, to provide an incentive as well. So everyone except for Scott Morrison seems to think that incentives are a good idea. And I think any incentive that's offered, including that being offered by New South Wales, is indeed a good idea. 

LAWS: I agree with you. Can you tell me, you probably can't, I'm going to ask you what do you think's wrong with Annastacia Palaszczuk and Mark McGowan? I mean, are they thick-headed or something? Are they stupid? 

ALBANESE: Nothing's wrong with them. They've kept their people safe. And last year, Mark McGowan won almost every single seat that was on offer. 

LAWS: I know, he’s done well. But what about his attitude to all of this?  

ALBANESE: Well, he's been constructive. He has, as well as Annastacia Palaszczuk, said they support the national plan. And what I don't understand is why the Prime Minister is looking for a fight with state governments. What he should be doing is bringing everyone together in the one direction. That's what national leadership is required. And throughout this pandemic, yesterday, I don't think calling Annastacia Palaszczuk or Queenslanders, indeed, and West Australians, referring to them as wanting to stay in a cave, is a very smart thing for a national leader to do. If we're in a cave, it's because of a failure of quarantine and vaccinations at the moment. That's why there are restrictions. 

LAWS: But I still think it's very naive of them to believe they're not going to be affected at some stage. I mean, New Zealand thought that they were going to be safe. Realistically, I don't believe that you can have zero cases. That's my thought only. But I think they're a bit naive, aren't they?  

ALBANESE: They are doing their best to keep people safe. And if you have a look at how well they are going, they are doing it. What they're not doing is saying, 'She'll be right, mate' and pretending that you have a gold standard in New South Wales out there saying that they didn't believe in any lockdowns. And now, in parts of my electorate, you not only have a lockdown, you have a curfew as well. You can't go to work. You can't go outside a five-kilometre radius during the day and you can't leave your home at night. 

LAWS: I would imagine, however, that all the governments and all the states would want to keep their state safe, wouldn't they?

ALBANESE: Of course they do. Of course they do. And that's what Annastacia and Mark are doing. I think they've done outstanding work. And remember during the Queensland state election, Scott Morrison went to Queensland and told them to open up their borders. And that was put to a vote, effectively, by the people of Queensland. And they responded by re-electing the Palaszczuk Government for a third time. I's quite remarkable that Annastacia has been elected three times as Premier with an increased majority, by the way, John. And of course, over in Western Australia, I don't think they'll take well to the insult that was given to them by the Prime Minister yesterday.

LAWS: What was that one? 

ALBANESE: About the cave analogy that was given.

LAWS: No, I don't think anybody would take kindly to that. But I tell you what is annoying a lot of people, including me. The whole thing is being so politicised. All the opposition to anything has got a political angle to it rather than a medical angle. Everybody's talking from a political point of view. Don't you think it's time we got down to the health side of it? Isn't that more important?

ALBANESE: Completely. And that's why, for example, I put forward this $300 incentive as a constructive suggestion.

LAWS: But do you really think $300 is going to make somebody who doesn't want to be vaccinated be vaccinated? 

ALBANESE: Well, it won't make some of the anti-vaxxers who don't believe in vaccinations at all. But it will provide an incentive for a discussion. It will provide a positive initiative, rather than just talk about sticks, talking about carrots, as New South Wales, as Qantas, as Telstra, as various state governments and governments around the world are doing, is in my view, a constructive thing to do. 

LAWS: What have you got to say to the anti-vaxxers? 

ALBANESE: Well, they're wrong. Science has helped us. We live longer today because of advances in medical science. We are lucky to live in a country that has some of the best scientists and medical professionals in the world. And that's why a whole lot of diseases that used to take our children in past generations have been eradicated. And we need to have respect for it. These vaccines are safe. If you can get vaccinated, you need to. 

LAWS: Well, that's the important thing. We need everybody to work together though, don’t we? I mean, National Cabinet made some agreements about opening borders with high vaccination rates. And now Western Australia and Queensland say that they’ve changed their minds as well. 

ALBANESE: Well, they haven't said that, John. What the Prime Minister is trying to do is pick a fight and say that has occurred. 

LAWS: Is the Prime Minister lying?

ALBANESE: Well, the Prime Minister plays politics with everything, John.

LAWS: You have not answered the question. Is he lying? 

ALBANESE: He plays politics with everything.

LAWS: Anthony, you didn't answer the question. Is the Prime Minister lying?

ALBANESE: Others will make their judgment on that. 

LAWS: You're the Opposition Leader. Aren't you in the position to make the judgment?

ALBANESE: The national plan is there for all to see. It's in writing. It's been released. It has four phases - A, B, C and D. And Phase B is there with lockdowns less likely but possible, and a range of other measures based upon a 70 per cent fully vaccinated rate. We're a long way from there now. And I think one of the things that the Prime Minister is trying to do is trying to change the conversation. Because we have, for example, 15 per cent of people who are First Nations, our Indigenous Australians, have been vaccinated. We have 25 per cent of NDIS participants, people with disabilities, have been vaccinated. One in four. We were told they would be fully vaccinated by Easter. We're now in August. We're a long way from achieving the previous targets that were put out there and were promised by the Government. 

LAWS: Okay. Just back to the question that I originally asked about three days ago. Is the Prime Minister lying? 

ALBANESE: Well, I’m not into –

LAWS: I know you’re not but it’s a simple question. Could you not give me a simple answer? Is the Prime Minister telling the truth? Or is the Prime Minister lying? 

ALBANESE: The Prime Minister plays politics with everything and puts a spin on everything.

LAWS: And you're not playing politics?

ALBANESE: No. What I'm doing is saying that the Prime Minister has failed on the commitments that he gave, that we were the front of the queue, on the commitments about how many people would be vaccinated and what sections of the community would be vaccinated. And we have a real problem with some of the most vulnerable people in our community, aged care residents, aged care workers, disability care workers, who are still not fully vaccinated and we're in August.

LAWS: That's right. And that's what concerns a lot of people.

ALBANESE: Absolutely. And it's a major problem. And it's one in which we need to make sure that we just do better.

LAWS: Anyway, the Prime Minister, it appears to me, is endeavouring to teach us otherwise. But again, is the Prime Minister lying?

ALBANESE: Well, John, you can ask the same question, but you won't get a different answer. 

LAWS: I haven't really had any answer. 

ALBANESE: Well, other people will judge that. People can look at what the Prime Minister has said and then look at what has actually happened. 

LAWS: I see. I'm surprised. I thought you would have answered the question. You've always been very straightforward with me. I would have thought you would have answered the question. 

ALBANESE: I am very straightforward, John. I am very straightforward. I am, of course, in parliamentary terms that is a term that we're not allowed to use.

LAWS: We're not in Parliament, Anthony. 

ALBANESE: No, absolutely. 

LAWS: We are free-to-air. We're enjoying ourselves having a chat. Is the Prime Minister lying?

ALBANESE: John, I’m not going to, other people will make their judgement about that. Has the Prime Minister been correct in what he has said? No. The facts don't bear that out. 

LAWS: Okay, I know you've got to go because you've got a country to help to run. And that's more important than having a chat to me. But I've enjoyed it nonetheless, as I always do.

ALBANESE: Good to talk to you, John. 

LAWS: Okay, good to talk to you. Anthony Albanese. We'll talk again, I'm sure.

ENDS