SUBJECTS: COVID outbreaks around Australia; lockdowns; vaccine rollout; need for national quarantine facilities; Labor’s policy agenda; holding the Government to account; Labor’s $300 vaccination incentive; mandating of vaccinations in different workplaces; Afghanistan. 

DEE DEE DUNLEAVY, HOST: Good afternoon to the Leader of the Australian Labor Party. Anthony Albanese, how are you today?

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good afternoon. Not too bad. Greetings from Canberra. 

DUNLEAVY: Where are you actually? You are in lockdown, aren't you?

ALBANESE: In Parliament House in lockdown. I'm able to go to Parliament House. But I'm restricted between Parliament House and my flat here. You are allowed an hour's exercise a day. But that's about it. So I haven't been home for nine weeks. 

DUNLEAVY: What's Parliament House like when you've got obviously a skeleton staff in there? It must be like a ghost town?

ALBANESE: Well, it's very quiet. But Canberra is very quiet, I've got to say. I usually walk up and back. And there are very few cars on the road. There's no people on the road. I actually took note of yesterday, I walked home after five when normally there'd be quite a few people around in the Parliament House environment outside. And I did not run into or see a single person for the entire walk home. So people are doing the right thing. And hopefully, the numbers can come down here in Canberra.

DUNLEAVY: When you walk around like that, is that like in the movies? Are there security people shadowing you? I mean, it strikes me as wonderful, but also a little, shouldn't be frightening, the leader of one of our major political parties is just walking on his own. It says it's a good country. But do you have security following you from a distance?

ALBANESE: No, I don't. I shouldn't say that, should I? But it is available if I request it at any time. I much prefer to be out and about without security. It means that normally people are in a position to come up and engage with you. And it means it's unscripted, because people don't expect to see you in the shopping aisles of Woollies or Coles or just around walking the dog. And it's a good thing. I try to, in my electorate, for example, I do walk the dog in different places around my electorate. I go to different shops in my electorate because you run into different people. And it is a great way to get that direct feedback. It is a strength of our democracy that here in Australia, that can happen. I know that some people express real surprise, particularly people from other countries where that's just not the case. My relatives in Italy were always very surprised when I as a Minister in the Government could just rock up there and catch the train from Rome and just get to see them one-on-one without the sort of security that characterises public office holders in most places of the world.

DUNLEAVY: And you're right, it is a wonderful thing of our country, especially in contrast to the situations we have elsewhere in the world at the moment. And I do thank you for joining us on talkback radio. If anyone has any questions for you, it's another way that people can voice their thoughts or ask their questions directly to you. 9690 0693. I want to talk about situation in Afghanistan. But Lance has called in with a question. Hi, Lance.

LANCE, CALLER: Hello, Anthony.

ALBANESE: G'day, Lance.

LANCE, CALLER: Quick question, mate. This $300 that you are going to give for the vaccine, do I have to wait until you get elected and then you're going to give everybody the money? Or should I not get the vaccine until you maybe do or don't get elected and then take the vaccine?

ALBANESE: No, I'd encourage you to get the vaccine as soon as you're able to. And what we have called for is a $300 payment that would be both a reward for people who have been vaccinated and an incentive for those who haven't been vaccinated to do so. So I've called for the Government to do that prior to December the first of this year. We need to get those vaccination numbers up. We were running last in the developed world, of course, for our vaccine rates. We're still trying to get to even that 50 per cent of first dose. And I note that in the United States today, President Biden has announced that from next month they'll be distributed a third booster jab. We are way behind. So please, if you can get vaccinated, it's the key for your own health, for the health of your family, the health of your community, people you come into contact with, it's the right thing to do.

DUNLEAVY: Something Lance said there, though, that might be an unintended consequence of your plan to give this $300 incentive, that people might wait until the election to see whether you get into power and thinking that they won't get the $300 until then.

ALBANESE: That is why we have said very clearly that it is indeed retrospective. That's been one of the rather strange criticisms by the Government of this proposal, the same Government that introduced no jab, no pay for families to get childcare support or for families to get Family Assistance, the same political party that brought in, of course, the baby bonus. There's no suggestion that that's the only reason why people had babies. But it was an economic incentive. And we know as well, the other benefit of the $300 is that the economy needs some stimulus right now. We know that the lockdowns are costing, just in New South Wales, it's costing a billion dollars a week is the assessment. Josh Frydenberg made an assessment of over $3 billion for national lockdown. So people would spend the money, creating jobs, creating economic activity in their local communities as well. 

DUNLEAVY: Look, I applaud anything that's going to give people the push they need to get the jab done. But I also wonder, psychologically, if people think, 'Oh, why did they need to bribe us to have it done?' That it might have the opposite effect. Would it be means tested?

ALBANESE: No, the idea is to keep it really simple and straightforward. If you are fully vaccinated, you'd be eligible to receive the $300 payment. And we wanted to keep it for whenever you got vaccinated before December, we wanted to reward those people who were able to get vaccinated. And it's aimed at a number of people, of course. One of the feedbacks that I've had, even in Zoom calls that I've had, which is the only way I am able to communicate, as well as through good programs like this one, is that a whole lot of people are frustrated because they heard the message to get vaccinated, they tried to get vaccinated and they couldn't get an appointment. We need people to not lose heart. It's not their fault that the supply was botched, essentially, and that we didn't order enough vaccines. And so that's why a $300 payment for everyone who has been vaccinated or gets vaccinated before December 1 is what we proposed. I was surprised that the Government rejected it without even thinking about it. But it was a constructive idea, just like this time, or earlier last year, we were proposing wage subsidies that, of course, lead to JobKeeper. So I hope the Government does change its mind. There are economic incentives, of course, all around the world to encourage people to get vaccinated.

DUNLEAVY: The Taliban has seized power in Afghanistan. The situation there is deteriorating. It's honestly just heartbreaking, some of the scenes that we've seen and reports that we're hearing of the mistreatment of people. A woman shot for not wearing a hijab. Firstly, let's start with the question, do you think that the US withdrawal from Afghanistan was done too soon or done not very well?

ALBANESE: Well, of course, this was a withdrawal that was announced by President Trump and then Australia joined that position because it was a US-led action. Certainly, there's a time for analysing how it was done and that will come. My concern is much more immediate, which is that I'm very concerned that we didn't act soon enough to evacuate the Australians and to evacuate those people who assisted Australians on the ground who are vulnerable because of their support for Australia. I think that we have a moral obligation, firstly, to people who helped our men and women in uniform. But secondly, also, there's a national security reason why that's important. Because we want to send a message to the world that if you help Australia, Australia will help you in your time of need. And that's why I think that the Government, unfortunately, should have acted earlier. John Howard was calling for it. Our veterans' community was calling for it. Kevin Rudd was calling for it. And Labor was calling for it. It is true to say that no one foresaw just how quickly Kabul would fall and the government would just disintegrate. But this has been coming for a while. And that's why those warnings have been around now for a number of months.

DUNLEAVY: Tez has a question for you on this topic. Good afternoon, Tez.

TEZ, CALLER: Good afternoon. First of all, hello to everyone and g'day to Mr Albanese.

ALBANESE: I am well, mate. I hope you're keeping well and safe.

TEZ, CALLER: As best as I can these days, mate, in Melbourne. I am an Australian citizen but I'm a former refugee from Afghanistan. I'm a truckie, a son of a former Brigadier General from back in the days of the king. What is your policy, first of all, moving forward from here for Afghanistan? Secondly, I just want to ask why is it such a big issue on the news, both from Joe Biden and here in Australia, on the news every night I'm hearing that the blame is being put on the Afghan Government, forget about the Afghan Government because they were corrupt, but the actual people, the soldiers fighting on the ground? Why are they expected to fight against their own people when there are supporters like us and the people that went into Afghanistan 20 years ago to promote democracy into a kingdom? Why are they not being supported? What are they expected to do? 

ALBANESE: Well, these are complex issues which, of course, you would be fully aware. I think there was an expectation, given the effort that was put into training the Afghanistan Defence Force, by Australians and Americans and British and other allied forces, that there would be more resistance to what is essentially a takeover, a coup, which has occurred with the return of the Taliban, particularly given, as we just heard, the return of practices, which, of course, are abhorrent. And what we saw when Taliban was last in office was really barbarism. It was inhumane treatment, particularly of women and girls. The news that schools were being closed, the news that in some areas, at least, it appears that women aren't coming outside of their homes unaccompanied by men, and that is such a setback. Democracy had come to Afghanistan. And I think people are just devastated that it has changed so quickly.

DUNLEAVY: Mr Albanese, should you win power at the next Federal election, would you, if you were in government, recognise a Taliban government? 

ALBANESE: Well, certainly that would require, I think, substantial convincing. The Taliban are saying that they have changed. But this is an ideological regime. They have practices that are really counter to everything that Australia believes in, in terms of human rights. I think that there will be a watching, as well, for whether there's a return to terrorism, essentially, having a safe haven there in Afghanistan as they had before, which led to 911, which led, of course, to the Bali Bombing. Australians lost their lives in both of those tragic events. And action was taken by the world as a result of that. So I think it is certainly far too early to talk about any recognition. This isn't a regime that has been democratically elected. This is a regime that have taken power by brutal force, effectively. And we will certainly be watching events in the coming weeks and months.

DUNLEAVY: It's almost no question in my mind that they cannot be trusted. But you are right, it does need to be watched.

ALBANESE: That certainly is the starting point. There's no basis for any trust of the Taliban because they have such a long record of having positions that just are completely counter to the values that Australians hold dear.

DUNLEAVY: Exactly. The Leader of the Australian Labor Party, Anthony Albanese, is with me. We will come back to him in a moment with more questions and your calls.

The Leader of the Federal Opposition, Anthony Albanese, is with me. We're discussing a number of issues. Just on the vaccinations, Mr Albanese, Qantas is making the vaccination mandatory for its staff, and SPC, the fruit and veggie processors, they say they've had legal advice that they're okay to ban workers who haven't been vaccinated. Do you agree with businesses implementing the no jab, no job approach?

ALBANESE: Well, I think, before we get ahead of ourselves, the issue is that many people can't get access to vaccines still. There's a need for a community discussion about those issues and for employers to work with their employees. I note the Qantas did that, they did a survey of their employees. And for some businesses, like Qantas, we know that there have been outbreaks, for example, as a result of flight attendants travelling. And that has led to shutdowns of communities as a result of them flying, for example, to regional settings in Queensland. When I was in Queensland, that was a source of real concern. So it is just a fact, I think, that down the track, in order to fly on an aircraft around the world, you're going to have to show that you're vaccinated. And of course, there's nothing new in that. I well recall having to show in the past, years ago, typhoid, cholera, black plague on one occasion, that I've been vaccinated for particular diseases when travelling to South America or to other parts of the world. So I just expect that will occur. I think there's a need for certainty for the Government to provide that for businesses and unions and workers going down the track. And at the moment, we don't have that. And I do think there's a need for that community discussion and the leadership from the Federal Government to make sure that actions which are taken are within the law, and that everyone knows what the rules are.

DUNLEAVY: Val has a question for you. Hi, Val. 

VAL, CALLER: Hi, Dee Dee. Good afternoon, Mr Albanese. I have just got some real concerns about us here in Australia going forward in the future, in terms of our zero COVID policies that seems to be amongst all the state premiers. Around the world, I think we're being viewed as overreacting and our lockdowns are not proportionate to the number of cases that we're having. I mean, just as an example, I've had cousins in Italy that have contacted me after seeing what's going on here. And they've said, 'Look, if you need to get out of Australia, you can come and stay with us'. That seems drastic. But that's the perception overseas. I'm more than happy to vaccinate myself and my family, as long as the Government is going to guarantee us that once we're vaccinated, that we're going to be able to live what we're calling a COVID-normal, social distancing, hand sanitising, limitations, possibly, in some numbers and things. But we can't continue to lockdown. It's not a life. We can't continue like this. And I'm seriously considering seeing where we are this time next year. And if we can't live our lives, then I'm seriously thinking of moving my family back to Europe where they are living with COVID and getting on with life. They're doing the same thing in North America. Same thing in Europe. And the same thing in Asia. They're living alongside it. They've accepted it. This isn't going away. COVID will never go away. It's like a flu virus. It will be with us forever. 

DUNLEAVY: So let's ask Mr Albanese, what is your Party's position on lockdowns going forward?

ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Val. You're quite right to point to the different way in which life has been led in Europe. I have relatives in Italy as well, and I am in contact with them regularly. And of course, you look at something like Wimbledon with the stands full, or the beginning of the English Premier League in the last couple of weeks where the grounds were full, and people are able to participate. The difference is that they have very high vaccination rates compared with us. The problem we have is that Scott Morrison said it wasn't a race and it was a race. Other countries have got ahead of us. I think I said a bit earlier that the US is talking about rolling out its third dose from next month. 

DUNLEAVY: We're just about 50 per cent that have had their first dose. We're 27.5 per cent fully vaccinated. So if we continue with the current rate, then we'll be at the 70 per cent mark in early November and 80 per cent by late November. The Premier here in Victoria, Daniel Andrews, listed off a laundry list of bookings where bookings are available. 

ALBANESE: We hope that is the case. That's the key to opening up. No one wants restrictions. No Premier, no Australian, I don't think, wants to be in the circumstance whereby we don't have our way of life. I, myself, I have not seen my son for more than two months. It's hard. But what we saw in New South Wales when this outbreak began, and that's what's responsible for the lockdowns in Victoria and the ones that have happened in Queensland, Northern Territory and ACT, the whole of New South Wales, and of course now New Zealand as well as of yesterday, all arose from New South Wales. An outbreak to begin with the limo driver going from the airport with a foreign air crew member, taking them to quarantine, unvaccinated and without a mask. And they weren't even breaking the rules. It just was a complete policy failure. And then a failure to act. Because there weren't restrictions when the outbreak then spread around Bondi and the Eastern Suburbs firstly, we saw it spread and now spread almost all around the country. And now we have more extreme lockdowns with the whole of Greater New South Wales locked down and Victoria, there in Melbourne, with the restrictions which are there. And it just shows, unfortunately, if you put off action, you end up having to take stricter action and it lasts for longer. That's the lesson. In Victoria, the last outbreak in Victoria, which arose again out of a breach from hotel quarantine in Adelaide, Victoria locked down and did get on top of it. They locked down early. The sacrifices made by Victorians made a difference. In New South Wales, I think, the complacency has meant a price is now being paid right around the country. And that was something that was encouraged by Scott Morrison to not lockdown. That was a mistake.

DUNLEAVY: Mr Albanese, just one other question that's coming off here that we didn't get a clear answer from you. Will you pay that $300 incentive payment if you win government?

ALBANESE: Well, if the election is before first of December, we certainly will. Depending upon when the election is, we were putting it forward as a constructive proposal for the Government to do, like they adopted JobKeeper. We will give consideration to those matters when an election is called. But we want people to get vaccinated now, not to wait until an election, which is likely to be next year.

DUNLEAVY: Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. Anthony Albanese, join us again sometime. He's the Leader of the Australian Labor Party.

ENDS