SUBJECTS: Federal election; Labor’s policy agenda; tax; economy; Australia’s relationship with China; women in politics; weight loss; travel allowance; new glasses.
 
NEIL MITCHELL, HOST: An opinion poll released today shows Labor well in front of the Coalition, 56-44. Scott Morrison is at his lowest level of popularity since he became Prime Minister. The campaign is well underway. In Melbourne at the moment, he has been at the tennis too, is the Federal Opposition Leader, the alternative Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. Good morning.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning, Neil. Good to be on the program.
 
MITCHELL: Good to talk to you. We won't have any spin today, will we?
 
ALBANESE: Never. Never. I'll leave that to you or others.
 
MITCHELL: Okay. Do you believe you'll be facing Scott Morrison as Prime Minister or somebody else?
 
ALBANESE: Yes, I'll be facing Scott Morrison. I fully expect that will be the case. And the Australian people will have to judge whether this Government is worthy of a second decade in office.
 
MITCHELL: So, you don't think there'll be a challenge to him? It was reported today that, maybe.
 
ALBANESE: I'll leave it to others. That's not what I'm concerned about. That's up to the Liberal Party. What I'm concerned about is putting forward a positive agenda and holding the Government to account. So they are my two jobs. And I'm concerned about developing policies for an alternative offer at the next election of secure work and a future made in Australia and our program of policies that we have put out.
 
MITCHELL: Well, let's look at tax. Is the tax system as it stands, it operates now, is it fair?
 
ALBANESE: Broadly, it's fair.
 
MITCHELL: Where isn't it?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I think that multinationals could do a bit more, frankly. And that's something that we're looking at. We'll have more to say about that between now and the next election.
 
MITCHELL: So, an increased tax level for multinationals in Australia.
 
ALBANESE: We're looking at details. And we'll have a full announcement when we finalise that, with regard to multinationals. But that's the one area that we're looking at the moment.
 
MITCHELL: Do Australians pay too much tax?
 
ALBANESE: Well, there are some changes coming through. Certainly, tax as a proportion of the economy is the second highest it's been. The only Government that beats it is the Howard Government as a proportion of the size of the national economies. So. for many people, I think they're doing it really tough at the moment, struggling to get by. And my concern is also the fact that wages have been held down for so long, and it is anticipated that they'll go backwards in real terms over the next four years under this Government.
 
MITCHELL: Does the top end of town pay its fair share or not?
 
ALBANESE: By and large, that is not a term that I use for a start, Neil, as you know. But we do have an equitable system. We need to pay for health and education and services. And I was with someone, Rebecca, this morning, who was a substantial tax payer, and they were certainly very, very, very happy to be doing so, to be making a contribution.
 
MITCHELL: How are you going to pay for these things? How do you pay for your promises without either increasing taxes, the level of taxation or cutting costs?
 
ALBANESE: Well, one of the things that we won't do, Neil, is there's $16 billion worth of savings in the Mid-Year Economic Forecast, they put $16 billion aside for decisions taken but not yet announced. The sort of political pork barrelling that we're seeing from this Government is one area that you can make a difference. We also need to cut back on waste. Why is it that companies that were increasing their profits were able to receive JobKeeper because this Government was lazy about putting appropriate mechanisms in place to ensure taxpayers got good value?
 
MITCHELL: So, are you able to promise no new taxes?
 
ALBANESE: I've already said to you, Neil, that we're considering the issue of multinationals. And we'll have more to say about that.
 
MITCHELL: What about new taxes on average Australians and wage earners? PAYG?
 
ALBANESE: What we're interested in is lifting living standards and lifting the cost of living pressures off ordinary wage earners who are doing it really tough. And you can do that by two ways. One of the ways you can't do that is by increasing the burden on them. We want to lift that burden by offering more affordable childcare. That's an example of where an investment will produce a return to the national economy. Every economist tells you that for every dollar invested, there'll be $2 returned. And that's the sort of policy that we're looking at. And we're also looking at ways in which wages can be increased.
 
MITCHELL: So, does the concern about the tax level, does that extend to people on the top rate of taxation? Would you not be taxing them more? Can you tell us you will not tax them more?
 
ALBANESE: We're not making any changes. I've made it very clear with regard to the legislated tax changes which are there. What people need for the economy is certainty going forward. And I've made it clear that we won't be making changes to the legislative tax arrangements which are in place.
 
MITCHELL: What about family trusts? Are they off the agenda now? Or is still a possibility?
 
ALBANESE: We've had no consideration of that, Neil. I know there's been some speculation and nonsense from the other side of politics. I've not been in any Shadow Cabinet meeting of our processes looking at any measures apart from the one that I've mentioned, which is multinationals.
 
MITCHELL: People are nervous. Would you say there will be no new taxes? Will you rule it out now? No changes to family trusts?
 
ALBANESE: What I've said is there'll be no increase in terms of the burden. We're not considering any of these measures. And what we have from a Government that's really desperate, they've been in office, Neil, shooting for a fourth term.
 
MITCHELL: That is called a diversion You're not ruling out changes to family trusts, you are really say it's not on the agenda. Can you rule it out?
 
ALBANESE: We're not giving any consideration to it, Neil. And you can go through 50 different titles and you'll get the same answer.
 
MITCHELL: Okay. Negative gearing, is that on the table?
 
ALBANESE: This is sort of the whack-a-mole game. We're not giving any consideration to any new taxes, except for the one that I've said is the only one that we are considering. And we'll make announcements about that with regard to multinational tax changes. But you know, Neil, that what happens under this Government and every government, from time to time there are slight adjustments through tax legislation amendment bills, they are normally up to four or five at this stage, go through every term, they've gone through under this Government. What we're interested in isn't that agenda, we're interested in taking the burden off families and small business.
 
MITCHELL: What will your tax be as a percentage of GDP? I think you mentioned a moment ago, I think they're aiming at 22.3 and 21-22. And you're right, it was right up in 1920. But it's been down since. What would you be aiming at? Will you increase it?
 
ALBANESE: It is higher than that, Neil. It's been up around the 24 figure at various times. So, it's been quite high. It's the second highest rate that we've seen.
 
MITCHELL: What is it at the moment?
 
ALBANESE: Neil, I am in a car to Box Hill. I don't have the precise figure in front of me. I know that it is a couple of points higher than it was when they inherited it in 2013.
 
MITCHELL: I got 22.9 in 2020 to 2021 and 22.3 21/22. But will you agree that you won't go above what's existing? Will you keep that down?
 
ALBANESE: Neil, we want to reduce that as a percentage. One way that you do it too is by growing the economy. And that's the problem at the moment is that the economy is being held back by low wages. It's being held back by people who are struggling to get by. You have increased petrol prices. You have increased grocery prices, particularly in areas like meat and veg, the essentials of life. You have incredible pressure on childcare costs. You have pressure when it comes to rent and affordable housing,
 
MITCHELL: What would you do about petrol prices? What do you do about petrol prices?
 
ALBANESE: Well, one of the things you do about cost of living is doing something about secure work, making sure that people can get secure work, making sure that their cost of living expenses through areas like childcare are improved.
 
MITCHELL: But you can't do anything about petrol prices. can you?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what you can do is do something about fuel security, Neil. Under this Government's watch, half of the refineries in the country have closed down. And their idea of fuel security is keeping fuel in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
MITCHELL: Okay, superannuation, any changes?
 
ALBANESE: We have not planned for any changes on superannuation. We'll do all of our policy announcements, Neil, they will be made as we've done since December, Neil, we've announced an energy policy that is substantial, fully costed, put it all out there transparently, we have announced new policies on the National Broadband Network, on the Great Barrier Reef, on 465,000 free TAFE places. We've announced in additional places for universities. We've announced support for schools going back, in terms of capital funding, but also for students. What we'll do is we'll announce our policies one by one, well before the election, everything will be fully costed.
 
MITCHELL: Okay, but that is not ruling out superannuation changes,
 
ALBANESE: We will announce all of our policies. And we're back to whack-a-mole, 'Will you rule everything out in vague broad terms?' What I've said is that we will have all of our policies out there well before the election. This Government haven't announced an agenda for a second decade at all. They don't have a policy for the moment. And they've been in office at the end of their third term, just occupying space, acting like an opposition in exile, sitting on the government benches.
 
MITCHELL: Okay. China, the Taiwanese Foreign Minister says China is stepping up its threatening behaviour, the danger is real. Where do you stand? Do you stand with Taiwan against the increasing military threat from China?
 
ALBANESE: Yes.
 
MITCHELL: Unequivocally? Would you support Taiwan in the event of any incursion by China?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what the international community have consistently said is that Taiwan's position needs to be respected. As you know, Neil, it's an unambiguous position that the United States and the international community have. But Taiwan's position needs to be respected. It's not in the interests of the international community to talk up conflict, of course. But I've visited Taiwan and I've met with their democratically-elected leadership. And that democracy should be respected. And there is a bipartisan position on Taiwan, on the South China Sea, on the Uyghurs, on all of the human rights positions, because China has changed its posture in recent years.
 
MITCHELL: So, you've said you will better relationships with China. How do you do that while still taking a stand against concentration camps?
 
ALBANESE: Well, no, actually, if you read out a quote from me, I'm happy to hear it, Neil. But what I've actually said, very clearly, is that there will remain a difficult position with China, regardless of who is in government, because it's China's position that has changed, not Australia's. What we've seen from a desperate Government is a rather embarrassing article, frankly, published on Saturday, from a Government looking for difference where there isn't any.
 
MITCHELL: Do you accept that China does run concentration camps, the equivalent, for the Uyghurs?
 
ALBANESE: Yes.
 
MITCHELL: What can you do about that? Why do we deal with a country that runs concentration camps?
 
ALBANESE: I have the same position as the Australian Government.
 
MITCHELL: Well, that's been a bit equivocal in my discussions with them. What is your position?
 
ALBANESE: It's the same position as the Australian Government's position, which is that we stand up for human rights. We call out behaviour and abuses of human rights when we see it.
 
MITCHELL: Okay. And you call out the concentration camps?
 
ALBANESE: That is your term. But there is abuse.
 
MITCHELL: What would you describe them as?
 
ALBANESE: Well, there is abuse of human rights for Uyghurs. And that is something that is of great concern. The issue of the language that you use, of course, draws a parallel with the treatment of Jews during the Holocaust. And that, I think, is always a dangerous thing to get into Holocaust parallels. Because I think many people in the Jewish community in particular, we had the Holocaust Memorial Day just last week, draw an offence to that. And I don't think that's ever a wise thing to do.
 
MITCHELL: Another issue quickly. Do you think the Prime Minister has a problem with women?
 
ALBANESE: It's up to other people to judge those issues, not myself.
 
MITCHELL: You seemed to exploit that by posting photographs of yourself with Grace Tame after that incident between her and the Prime Minister at the Lodge. That was deliberate, clearly?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I think Grace Tane has done a wonderful job as the Australian of the Year. She's someone, like a whole generation of young women, who have my respect for their courage and the fortitude in speaking out. The whole Grace Tame campaign was around the theme of 'Let her speak'. And she ran an extraordinary campaign to have the right to speak about what happened to her and to name the perpetrator involved, who was found, of course, to be guilty. This isn't something that is conjecture. And she received the great honour of being the Australian of the Year.
 
MITCHELL: Well, what about the situation with Alan Tudge, the Liberal Minister, who admitted to a relationship with a staffer, which isn't a good thing, then he's accused of mistreatment, which he denies. What if one of your Cabinet had a sexual relationship with a staffer? Would you sack them?
 
ALBANESE: I think that there are very clear guidelines that mean that is not a sensible thing to do.
 
MITCHELL: So, would you sack them?
 
ALBANESE: I'm not going to, Neil, go through hypotheticals in terms of something that hasn't happened.
 
MITCHELL: Okay. Your travel allowance, $17,169 to stay in a flat of your own, Liberals do the same. Now, I know it's within the rules, but it just looks bizarre that you get that sort of money as an allowance to stay in a property you own. Can you change those rules?
 
ALBANESE: Well, the rules are there in terms of travel allowance for this year, a range of MPs, Greg Hunt, Josh Frydenberg, myself, a whole bunch of the ministers, other people – I don't know why Tim Wilson was in Canberra for that long. I worked out of Canberra and also worked in Queensland and in Tasmania.
 
MITCHELL: Do you think the rest of the real world really thinks it's acceptable to charge $17,000 just as a travel allowance to stay in your own house?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I think that the remuneration tribunal is arm's length from politicians. And I think that's a very good idea to keep that, Neil, to keep that arm's length process for politicians so that we're not determining our own entitlements.
 
MITCHELL: So, you wouldn't change that?
 
ALBANESE: The tribunal determines those things, not politicians. So, I'm not in a position to change that. And that's a sensible thing to do.
 
MITCHELL: Thank you so much for your time. How did you lose 16 kilos?
 
ALBANESE: Discipline, Neil. Discipline.
 
MITCHELL: Well, I know you like a beer. No beer?
 
ALBANESE: I can't cut out beer completely. One of the things that I've done, I think, is not to be too dogmatic about any of the changes I've made to diet or to living. I think that it is easier to reduce than to completely eliminate. So, I've reduced how many beers I have, but I still have the odd beer. And that's a good thing. Life's too short to give up all the good things. And I did give up, completely, all alcohol for five months. That was very helpful.
 
MITCHELL: Do you have an image consultant helping on those new glasses?
 
ALBANESE: No.
 
MITCHELL: You're doing it all yourself, or is the office?
 
ALBANESE: I'm doing it. I bought my glasses from George Tsenkas Optometrist on Marrickville Road, Marrickville. George thinks it's hilarious that it's made the paper because I took two minutes. I tried on one pair and said, 'There that'll do', because I'd stepped on my old glasses that he had to repair.
 
MITCHELL: Thank you so much for your time. Let's catch up again soon. Thank you for talking to us.
 
ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Neil. Bye.
 
MITCHELL: Federal Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese.
 
ENDS