SUBJECTS: COVID outbreaks around Australia; lockdowns; vaccine rollout; need for national quarantine facilities; Labor’s policy agenda; holding the Government to account; Afghanistan. 

LIAM BARTLETT, HOST: Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese, joins us on the program. Mr Albanese, good morning.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning. Good to be with you. 

BARTLETT: Nice to be with you too. You must be almost reaching the insanity level in lockdown at the moment.

ALBANESE: Well, it's been nine weeks since I've been home now and I am speaking to you from Canberra where, at the moment, I am unable to travel anywhere from Canberra, of course, because it's in quite a strict lockdown. I am able to travel up to Parliament House here and to conduct my work. But Canberrans, I must say, are being very good at following the rules which are there. The streets are basically deserted. There are very few cars on the road and that's a good sign if they're going to get through this outbreak which, of course, like all the other outbreaks, all arose from the one incident in Sydney. One limo driver, unvaccinated, no mask, taking a foreign air crew member to hotel quarantine. That has led to this diabolical outbreak and the tragedy is, as well, that limo driver wasn't even breaking the rules. It just shows what happens when you are complacent from what is a very real threat to our health and to our way of life.

BARTLETT: So, you can't go back to Sydney and then claim an exemption as an essential traveller or essential worker, as a parliamentarian, to come back? You've got to just stay in Canberra, do you?

ALBANESE: Correct. If I went to Sydney, I would have to isolate for 14 days with no contact. And indeed, some of my colleagues, Kristina Keneally, Stephen Jones, my frontbench members, Jenny McAllister, our Shadow Cabinet Secretary, are doing just that. They are nearing the end of their two weeks in isolation with no contact with anyone and that is a tough thing for them to do. And as the Leader of the Labor Party, it's important I be in a position to be able to speak on behalf of the Opposition, to hold the Government to account, but also put forward constructive ideas, as we have done so for the last two years that this, almost two years now, seems like longer, this pandemic has been going.

BARTLETT: It does. Well, let's talk about that. Because Parliament's back on Monday and coming back to the polls, you are in front. But do you deserve to be in front, Anthony Albanese? I mean seriously, you really haven't actually done anything, have you? And I say that with great respect.

ALBANESE: Well, what we've done is hold the Government to account whether it's on the bushfire crisis, whether it be the aged care crisis, whether it be the rollout of the vaccine and the failure to build purpose-built quarantine facilities.

BARTLETT: But when you say you held them to account, what does that actually mean? I mean, it sounds good and slips off the tongue nicely. It's a nice political cliché but what have you actually done?

ALBANESE: Well, it means raising issues, pointing out, as we were this time last year in every single interview I did, including there on 6PR, pointing out that we needed to do more deals with more pharmaceutical companies for more vaccines sooner. Had we done that, we wouldn't be in this predicament now. And I've continued, as well, to point out the need for purpose-built national quarantine facilities. But we've also put forward constructive suggestions like wage subsidies that kept people in work last year. When we first suggested a scheme like JobKeeper, the Prime Minister said it was a ‘dangerous idea’. The idea that Government would pay for people who were in private sector employment was something that was anathema to this Government. We advanced it, we argued for it, and it got adopted.

BARTLETT: It did get adopted and parts of it went terribly wrong. Horribly wrong. We know from official figures, there's $13 billion of it, billion with a B, that didn't need to be given out. I mean, what are you doing in Parliament about forcing the Government to claw back those billions in public money that's been gifted to companies that made a profit during the pandemic?

ALBANESE: We've continued to raise this with the Government. We will continue to do so. But it's strong against the weak but weak against the strong at the same time. It is trying to claw back payments from individuals who might have received a bit of JobKeeper and JobSeeker. They are chasing down people for hundreds of dollars, but allowing businesses that didn't need it, that increased their profits, to keep literally tens of millions of dollars. And we think that is a real misnomer. If they had got that right, that's $13 billion that could have been spent more wisely, creating jobs, actually supporting the economy when it's needed, because the economy is really struggling.

BARTLETT: Totally. How far are you prepared to go on that push? How far are you prepared to go? Because you're worried about some of the businesses saying to you, 'Hey, listen, we donate to the Labor Party as well, Anthony, hold off'.

ALBANESE: No, we've been very clear about the companies and our individual Treasury spokespeople have been very vocal about it. We've called it out, called it for what it is, and we'll continue to do so. But we also, Liam, have used this time to advocate policies for a stronger Australia. Cheaper child care, more investment in social housing, making sure that nurses are there in nursing homes, advocating our National Reconstruction Fund so that we can support new industries. We have argued for secure work, a range of measures including proper definition of casuals, making sure people in the mining sector and others get same job, same pay, making sure that we can address the exploitation of people who are gig workers, changing the gender pay gap, which is there, dealing with the unfairness across a range of issues that is there for women in work, including 10 days paid domestic and family violence leave. We have argued for net zero emissions by 2050. So, we're arguing a range of positive policies as well to set us up for Government so that when we're successful, if the Australian people vote for us, we'll be ready to hit the ground running. This is a once in a century opportunity to build back stronger.

BARTLETT: Nobody is suggesting that it's easy being in Opposition. You know better than anyone. It's a fine line between whingeing and coming up with an idea. But have you really put forward anything that's big picture? Have you given us anything, really, to aspire to? Any real vision in everything you've just said?

ALBANESE: A National Reconstruction Fund that builds new industries, that did more than just export minerals and then import them back in at much greater value, once the value adding has occurred, is just one example of the vision that we're offering. Fairer workplaces, making sure that child care, the affordable provision of child care on a universal basis, will be a transformational change that will really create opportunities for women's workforce participation, it will drive productivity and it will benefit children who benefit from quality early learning as well. Net zero emissions by 2050. The transformation of Australia into a renewable energy superpower. We've got a policy to make electric vehicles cheaper, to make sure that there's community batteries so that we can store and transfer the benefit of solar energy. We have a $20 billion plan for Rewiring the Nation that's about transmission. What that could do, particularly for the West, because when your sun is still shining, it's the peak hour on the east coast, if we get transmission right, that could transform the way that our energy sector operates and have particular benefit for the economy of Western Australia.

BARTLETT: All right. Well, look, I want to move on and ask you about something else. We're speaking with Anthony Albanese. Eighteen past nine. Mr Albanese, the Prime Minister has signalled that initially, some 3,000 Afghan refugees will be able to move to Australia. This is in the wake of that disastrous first evacuation flight yesterday that took 26 people out of Kabul. Do you think 3,000 is generous enough for Afghan refugees to come here? 

ALBANESE: Well, the Government has mixed messages on this as well. The Prime Minister said that it would be in the existing intake yesterday. This morning, Alex Hawke, the Minister for Immigration, said it was additional intake. Australia has provided, under the Morison Government, 13,750 humanitarian places a year but they're not being filled. People aren't coming in at the moment. So it seems to me that there is a large availability there to fill that quota from people who are in need, and in particular, people who helped Australians. I'm concerned here that not only do we have a moral obligation, as John Howard and Kevin Rudd and Labor has been pointing out for some time, of assisting people like interpreters who assisted our frontline soldiers at their time of need. It's a moral obligation. But it's more than that. It's a national security issue. If we don't send a message to the world that when people help Australians, particularly Australian Defence personnel, we will help them in their time of need in return, that's a very bad message for us to send. And I know that speaking now, our veterans' communities, including people like Luke Gosling who serves in our Parliament, they're very concerned about the messages being sent. 

BARTLETT: How many?

ALBANESE: We need to be briefed by the Government about how many spots are currently not being filled out of that 13,750. And that's something that we'll be examining next week.

BARTLETT: Forget about the refugee program numbers for a moment, that annual number that you mentioned, 13,750. Let's just look at this from a single humanitarian aspect. Tony Abbott made room for 12,000 from Syria six years ago. How is this any different?

ALBANESE: Well, because now we have a different Prime Minister who has a very different view to the generous and, I think, appropriate stance that was supported by Labor that Tony Abbott took at that time. We have yet again here, too little, too late. How is it that you had former Prime Ministers and the veterans' community who served in Afghanistan crying out saying we need to get these people out of Afghanistan and now we have a circumstance whereby it's very dangerous going into Kabul now? We've all seen those horrific scenes on the TV news at night. And the circumstances are extremely difficult. I had a full briefing, and I thank the Government for that, on Monday with the Acting Chief of the Defence Force and others. This is a very difficult predicament. And the Government, I think, should have acted far sooner to get Australians to safety and to get those who we are obligated to support to safety as well.

BARTLETT: But what about the women and the kids and the families now? For a moment, let's just forget about the interpreters and their families. Let's just talk about that 3,000 figure. If you were Prime Minister today, what's the number that you'd be looking at? Would it be 3,000 or would it be more?

ALBANESE: I am not going to play a game with figures, Liam, because the circumstances here are a matter of need.

BARTLETT: But that's my whole point. But do you agree it's more than 3,000?

ALBANESE: Well, certainly, it's very clear that if we have a quota that is four times, or more than four times, that of 3,000 that's not being filled, why aren't those positions being filled by people who need it? People like women's rights activists, people who have stood up for democracy, now that it's been replaced with a regime that has a history of cruelty and barbarism and trying to turn back the clock many centuries.

BARTLETT: But why are we even worried about the program, the annual program, Mr Albanese. That's my point.

ALBANESE: Because that's how we figure refugees.

BARTLETT: But you don't. You haven't in this situation. We have not in the past. Bob Hawke allowed in 42,000 Chinese. Malcolm Fraser brought in 50,000 Vietnamese. Both in very, very similar circumstances. Tony Abbott, 12,000 Syrians. Exactly the same sort of war-torn situation. So I'm asking you straight as a potential Prime Minister, if 3,000 is not good enough, what are we looking at?

ALBANESE: Well, we're certainly looking at more support. But what I would do as Prime Minister, as well, is get the appropriate briefings from the appropriate departments and make considered decision making. Not sit back and wait until the circumstances overwhelm me, which is what consistently happens with this Prime Minister, whether it's bushfires, whether it be the current circumstance, or whether it be vaccines or quarantine. There's a pattern of behaviour here, which is that you deny that there's a problem, then you wait until there's an absolute crisis, then you act too late. That's what keeps happening with this Prime Minister.

BARTLETT: Mr Albanese, thanks very much for your time this morning.

ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Liam.

BARTLETT: Anthony Albanese, Federal Opposition Leader, here on the program.

ENDS