SUBJECTS: COVID outbreaks around Australia; lockdowns; vaccine rollout; need for national quarantine facilities; holding the Government to account; Labor’s $300 vaccination incentive; mandating of COVID-19 vaccinations; ABC funding; so-called National Cabinet; Afghanistan.

GAVIN MCGRATH, HOST: Well, the Federal Opposition says it has a plan. An incentive for people to get vaccinated, a one-off payment of $300. So selling that plan today, none other than the Federal Leader of the Opposition, Anthony Albanese. Mr Albanese, good morning.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning, Gavin. Good to be with you. 

MCGRATH: Thank you for joining me and getting in touch with us as well. And as I said, a rare opportunity to send me a question on 0467 842 722. Mr Albanese, the plan, what is the plan?

ALBANESE: Well, the plan is to pay $300 as a cash payment for everyone who's fully vaccinated by the first of December. It is a plan that's in line with the economic incentives that are being rolled out right around the world. And indeed, I do notice that this week, Telstra have said that they will pay $200 for all of their employees who get themselves vaccinated. So the private sector is stepping up. Here, the Federal Government needs to acknowledge that it will be difficult to get to that at least 80 per cent rate that they want to get to, and we all want to see happen. At the moment, we've just ticked over just half of Australians have had a single dose. In the US, they're talking about their third dose, the booster shots, coming in from next month. We have been way, way behind. We've been right at the back of the queue. And this was just a constructive suggestion of providing that positive way forward in order to then free us from the lockdowns that, of course, are causing harm to jobs and the economy.

MCGRATH: You did say that the vaccination rate is well behind. The rollout is finally kicking into gear. So why do you believe this plan is even needed?

ALBANESE: It's needed for two reasons. One, that Australians deserve reward, but they also deserve an incentive. So that for those people, what we've found throughout the world is that experience is getting to 60 per cent is reasonably easy. But there'll be a whole lot of people out there who say, 'Oh, yeah, I want to get vaccinated. But I'll get around to it'. And you need to start those discussions. You need to have that incentive to really get the rates higher, for the same reason why Telstra are doing it for their employees, for the same reason why we have various incentives, everything from chickens in Indonesia to eggs in Hong Kong, to lotteries in various places. The Federal Government itself examined having a lottery-based system. They approached one of the big corporations to see whether they could do it. And the person in charge of the rollout, Lieutenant General Frewen, said that he doesn't rule out economic incentives of whatever form. And indeed, the Chief Medical Officer earlier this year said we need to do whatever was necessary. So there are real health reasons. But there's another reason as well. The Treasurer stood up yesterday and said that the economy was likely to go backwards by two per cent in the current quarter in terms of economic growth. Now, we needed stimulus last year. We needed stimulus during the Global Financial Crisis. Why wouldn't you link economic stimulus and support with a health outcome in a positive way?

MCGRATH: Mr Albanese, as one of those people who've actually had the vaccine so far, what about us? Should we be punished for being an early adopter? 

ALBANESE: No, you'd get it. You'd get it. Be very clear. The proposal is for a very simple system, which is that everyone who has been fully vaccinated gets the payment. That's why I say reward, as well as incentive. You've done the right thing. You should get the payment as well. And you'll spend that $300 there in the Ballarat community. It'll go to a local small business, it'll go to local restaurants when they're up and running, the local pub, the local coffee shop, the local small goods supplier, local supermarkets. It will stay in the economy. And that is why it is a small payment, a modest payment, but it's one also designed to start discussion. And if 80 per cent of Australians get the vaccine and get both doses, then you're talking about a cost of just around about $5 billion. Now, compare that with the cost of the lockdown in New South Wales at the moment. It has been a billion dollars, over a billion dollars, every week. And we're into the eighth week. So this is a very modest contribution compared with the costs that our failure, not a failure of the Australian people, a failure of the Government to get the supply right of vaccines. And the failure of the Federal Government to fix purpose-built quarantine facilities. They've been the two big failures this year. And the Australian people shouldn't continue to bear the burden of that.

MCGRATH: Mr Albanese, the supply issue is beginning to improve. Why isn't getting a free vaccine enough, though? I mean, why do you need incentives? I would have thought that being safe would have been incentive enough. 

ALBANESE: Well, when the Coalition brought in the baby bonus, I don't think they said that the only reason why people are having babies is to get that payment, the one-off payment that came in. People have continued to have babies before and after. But there was a spike in the fertility rate when it happened. This is the Government that introduced, when Scott Morrison was the Minister for Social Security, introduced the no jab, no play policy, so that in order to get childcare rebate, and in order to get some of the family benefits payments, they needed to show that your child had been vaccinated. Now, that wasn't the only reason why children get vaccinated, of course. Parents should get their kids vaccinated. But when the current Prime Minister introduced that legislation, he said it was about increasing the rates of vaccinations of children. Now, that policy enjoys bipartisan support. It's still there. And of course, overwhelmingly, Australians will get vaccinated for all the right reasons. It's a smart thing to do for your health, for the health of your family, for the community and to get it done. But an economic incentive, there is actually no downside to this. It's only upside. 

MCGRATH: Sure. I am speaking with the Federal Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese. Text message line is 0467 842 722. Quite a few have come through, but I'll read just a couple if I may. 'Can you please let Mr Albanese know that the $300 payments seem like a good idea or is a good idea and gives a much-needed boost for local businesses'. They are also asking you to keep Labor's negative gearing policy. A different slant, though, from Kate, 'Never heard someone so out of touch with the real world. We don't want a cash reward. We just want to be able to be vaccinated and get out of lockdowns'. Now, $300 that's a nice carrot. But what about the stick? Should there be disincentives for those who don't get the vaccine? What is Labor's policy on this?

ALBANESE: Well, that's my point. At this point, the second texter was quite right. The issue has been supply. People do want to get vaccinated and haven't been able to. And that's one of the things that this policy is aimed at addressing as well. I know of so many people who have tried to make appointments. They hear politicians, myself or anyone else on the radio, and they say, 'Right. I'll get out and get vaccinated'. And they're unable to get appointments. That has been the case now for a considerable period of time, for many, many months. And we know that it's only from the end of this month that younger people are going to be able to get more access to the vaccine. So we know that's an issue. Until we fixed supply and until we fix the vaccination rates, then the issues of restrictions, which require, I think, some Commonwealth leadership, need to sit down with employers and unions and work these issues through. At the moment that's an issue for down the track. Although I do note that some businesses have already made statements, like Qantas. And that's not surprising. There will be restrictions. We know that in order to travel overseas, for a long period of time to some countries, you've had to have typhoid, cholera or black plague. This will be exactly the same. And I think in the future, anyone wanting to travel internationally on a plane will need to show that they're vaccinated. And I think most airlines, and perhaps all through the international aviation bodies, will impose a no jab, no fly policy. I fully expect that to happen. With regard to other workplaces, we need to have that community discussion.

MCGRATH: Okay. Well, on that score, I have noticed that for example, that SPC and Qantas have announced Coronavirus vaccinations mandatory for staff. If you were Prime Minister, would you back companies that had a no vax, no work policy, or, as you mentioned before, a no vax, no fly policy?

ALBANESE: Well, what I would do with companies like Qantas, where you have a plane, where obviously there is shared ventilation on that plane, you are sharing a space for a period of time, as a customer, people will demand to know that the flight attendant on that plane, and I suspect over a period of time it will turn to customers as well, but people will want to know that the person serving them is fully vaccinated. So that's a commercial decision, which makes sense for Qantas to look at that. With regard to other businesses, I think that the Prime Minister should be convening a meeting and providing certainty. It doesn't have to happen straightaway, because the issue at the moment is that of supply and getting people vaccinated. But I think that there will be a need for a national discussion. It should be led by the Prime Minister. There should be support for an outcome which is talked through in a cooperative way. But part of the reason for my $300 policy as well is there's a lot of talk about punitive action. I wanted to put forward something constructively to the Government that's about a positive initiative, which at this time, where there's a lot of negativity around, I would have thought that was a good thing.

MCGRATH: Sure. Now, we are running short on time, but a few quick questions if I may. Mr Albanese, National Cabinet, if you became Prime Minister, would you retain it?

ALBANESE: Well, I think that the so-called National Cabinet, of course, has been determined by the law to not really by a cabinet. A cabinet is a process where everyone agrees and goes in one direction. And I think we're not seeing that from the process. I think there's a need for national leadership, whatever you call it. It used to be called COAG. It essentially is the same thing. Phone hook-ups with the premiers. I think there's a need for a proper discussion about how Federation operates, and much more uniformity in the way that our country is functioning. 

MCGRATH: Okay. Yesterday I spoke with Steve Rowe. He said the one thing Government could do to help tourism businesses survive was a wage subsidy like New South Wales' JobSaver scheme. What would you say to Steve?

ALBANESE: I think that JobKeeper worked. We campaigned for it. It worked for businesses. It was a subsidy. And there's a need for more support for the tourism sector.

MCGRATH: Sure. And just finally, a question that I wanted to sneak in. The Federal Government's funding freeze for the ABC, some estimates are that it's taking $40 million a year out of the ABC budget. If you were Prime Minister, if you are elected at the next Federal election, what would you do about that?

ALBANESE: We'd restore the funding. It was a commitment that I gave way back in 2020. The 80 odd million dollars that was ripped out of the ABC is placing more pressure. And we see during these difficult times, the ABC is needed more than ever. When the bushfire crisis happened, the ABC saved lives, literally. And it is an important national institution that should be respected. Its independence should be respected. And it should be properly funded.

MCGRATH: And finally, on what's been happening in Afghanistan, and we've looked at that quite closely on this program, is it a bipartisan program, looking at what's happening over there?

ALBANESE: It certainly is bipartisan, getting people out. And I pay tribute to those Defence Force personnel who are taking the risky journey to help their fellow Australians and to allow others to be evacuated. But the truth is that Labor, and people like John Howard and Kevin Rudd, and the veterans' community were saying, for months now, that action needed to be taken. And once again, this Government, I think, can be characterised by waiting until a problem becomes a crisis before it acts. And then the action is always too late. Whether it was this issue, or whether it be the rollout of the vaccines, whether it be the response to bushfire crisis or the response to the aged care crisis, this Government is characterised by always being too little and too late. 

MCGRATH: Mr Albanese, thank you so much for your time this morning. 

ALBANESE: Thank you very much.

ENDS