STEVE AUSTIN, HOST: We turn to politics today with Anthony Albanese, the Federal Labor Leader. Jim Chalmers has vacated today but Anthony Albanese’s joining me. The Federal Opposition, as you would have heard on ABC radio throughout the day, is asking that Christian Porter, former Cabinet Minister now, reveal how donations were solicited to a blind trust, which paid for some of the bills he accrued as part of his defamation action against this organisation, the ABC. As you would have heard the news on the weekend, Christian Porter stepped down from the Government's front bench after it was revealed this trust paid for some of these bills. In a statement, the former Industry and Science Minister says he wasn't willing to pressure the trust to outline who gave him the cash and will instead move to the backbench. Well, Anthony Albanese is the Federal Opposition Leader. Anthony Albanese good afternoon. Sorry to keep you waiting.



ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good afternoon. Good to be with you.

AUSTIN: Why does Christian Porter need to either resign or pay back the mystery donations he's received, as your side has been arguing today?

ALBANESE: Because he's clearly in breach of the obligation that every Member of Parliament has. If you think about it for more than one second, you know that the idea that a Member of Parliament being given money for private purposes, which is what this legal case was, anonymously and not disclosing it is the sort of slippery slope of why we have a register of pecuniary interests to avoid any suggestion that people can get benefits just dropped off without knowing where it's come from. This is an open and shut case, that he has to either pay the money back or he has to declare where it's from, how much was given, how people donated to this fund is beyond me. And these are all questions that remain outstanding.

AUSTIN: He's already stated that he isn't willing to pressure the trust, to outline who gave him the cash. And his argument is “well, I'm moving to the backbench”. So, in other words, “I'm stepping down from my ministerial role”. In other words, I take it that he means that's sufficient action to take.

ALBANESE: Well, he was in breach of the ministerial guidelines, but he's also in breach of his obligations as a Member of Parliament. Common sense tells you that you can’t have money just dropped off anonymously at the front of offices for private purposes for Members of Parliament to spend. That's why we have a register of pecuniary interests. If he is allowed to stay in this position, without disclosing, then it renders irrelevant and redundant the whole process of declaration when you receive a private gift of any sort. That's why the register is there.

AUSTIN: So, his declaration isn't enough when it's blind, when it's a blind trust?

ALBANESE: Well, this is a nonsense, of course, this so called “blind trust”. What blind trusts are there for is if you have a substantial amount of money, or you're in a position whereby you have investments, like Malcolm Turnbull did, he had a blind trust that made investments on his behalf, independent at arm's length from him. He didn't know where the money was going, where his money was going to be invested, and therefore it couldn't influence his decision making and those investments couldn't be made with the knowledge that a Prime Minister or a Minister has. This is the reverse of that. This is him receiving the benefit from individuals. This is the opposite of what the so-called “blind trust provisions” are there for and that's why he has to declare where this money has come from. Either that or he can, he’s entitled to receive gifts as a private citizen, but he has to become a private citizen to put himself in that position.

AUSTIN: Ministerial standards are normally set by the Cabinet Secretary of the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister has left the country to do some normal diplomacy work on behalf of Australia. Does the Prime Minister personally have to do it? Or can someone else do it, sort of the Acting Prime Minister in his absence? Or can another, can the Cabinet require a higher standard in terms of ministerial directives?

ALBANESE: The Prime Minister, certainly, it’s his responsibility at the end of the day. If someone is acting for him then they take on that responsibility. But Scott Morrison didn't even sack this fellow. He resigned. And then Scott Morrison's gone, and today we hear from the Acting Prime Minister, Barnaby Joyce, “nothing to see here” and already talking about him coming back.

AUSTIN: Yes, well Barnaby Joyce has apparently implied that he will be able to return at some point to the Ministry.

ALBANESE: He only went yesterday. I mean, this is a, thank goodness the judiciary system is a bit more serious than this. It's just beyond belief that within 24 hours of him resigning as a Minister after this scandal, they're already talking about him coming back. But this is a Government that has recycled Ministers who have resigned, including Sussan Ley, and others, including Stuart Robert, and, of course, Barnaby Joyce has gone and come back as Deputy Prime Minister. And this is a rabble instead of a Government. And what Australia needs is some certainty going forward. And we certainly need some probity, and we need confidence in a political system. No wonder this Government hasn't advanced the National Integrity Commission that they promised in 2018. It's now nearing the end of their third term and we are no closer to seeing it.

AUSTIN: But the National Integrity Commission wouldn't be able to do anything in relation to Christian Porter. I mean, he's, apart from this this bizarre trust fund’s appearance, he hasn't been found guilty or even investigated of any crime at all, has he? So, the integrity commission couldn't do anything in this area?

ALBANESE: An integrity commission, an anti-corruption commission, could certainly investigate where money is coming from in terms of private donations to a Minister of the Crown.

AUSTIN: Right.

ALBANESE: That's precisely the sort of activity that in anti-corruption commission investigates. That's the sort of thing that the New South Wales has seen multiple resignations of Ministers. Bear this in mind, the New South Wales Premier, Barry O’Farrell, lost his position because of a bottle of wine given to him that was not declared properly?

AUSTIN: And he resigned himself. So, he actually, as the then Premier of New South Wales, he actually resigned himself to me, he took action against himself as it were.

ALBANESE: He did. But if that hadn't happened, then there would have been other action when an adverse finding was found against him. You know, he is now our Ambassador to India, our High Commissioner, and I'm sure he has a great interest in India. I'm sure he's doing a good job. I actually quite like Barry, but he had to lose his job over that. This Minister has received up to a million dollars from sources unknown. We know with a bottle of red wine came from, that was that was no mystery. Here we have a substantial number of donations, or maybe there's just one big one, we don't know. And the public are entitled to know. That's why we have a register of pecuniary interests.

AUSTIN: This is ABC Radio Brisbane. My guest is Anthony Albanese, Federal Labor Leader. It's 4:50. A couple of listeners, like David from Highvale, sent me a message saying “why is it”, he’s asking “why is it that when you resign for obviously doing the wrong thing, you can just go to the backbench rather than properly losing your job?”. Is there any way other than being voted out by the people that a politician can lose their position when they've obviously, even by their own move, indicated that they've done something wrong? Can you answer that question at all from David from Highfield? Highvale, I'm sorry.

ALBANESE: Well, this is a political question. And if Scott Morrison cut Christian Porter loose, as he should have, then Christian Porter would have had no choice but to resign from the parliament.

AUSTIN: Would the Prime Minister know where the million dollars came from in the blind trust?

ALBANESE: I don't know. That's the thing here. We're all left with all those questions to be answered.

AUSTIN: But it's clear they want him back. It's clear they are wanting back. Barnaby Joyce has implied that he will return at some point. Federal Minister in Queensland here, Stuart Robert, described, on ABC News Breakfast on TV this morning, his resignation as “heartbreaking”. So, it's clear the Government would like him back at some point.

ALBANESE: Well, Stuart Robert knows about having to resign over issues, and he of course then returned. But what we have here is the idea that punters out there listening to this show would know if they wanted to contribute to Christian Porter's legal case would know how to, anonymously, put money into this fund, it’s beyond my comprehension. It fails the laugh test. People had to be solicited to get this money into the fund. It wasn't something that was “can you drop money outside the electorate office in Perth?”. It was money put into, one assumes, a bank account in order for these bills to be paid. How did that occur? These are all questions that need to be answered this. This is a sort of thing that undermines faith in our political system. And this is why we need that integrity commission.

AUSTIN: Shaun in Thornlands says that any comment on Porter’s blind trust should reference the fact that he was, and these are Shaun's words, “attacked by the ABC”, and that the ABC’s defence against this legal action was paid for by the taxpayer. So, Porter has saved the taxpayer many millions, because Porter would have won the case, says Shaun. Let me come to the cause…

ALBANESE: Well, he didn’t win the case which is why he didn't pursue it. That's the point here. And he chose to take this action, in the knowledge clearly that he was going to have the bills paid by someone else. Now, how did he have that?

AUSTIN: Well, he denies it, doesn't he? He denies that. I think he's indicated already that he didn't know that someone was going to pay his legal bills.

ALBANESE: How do you take action and run up a bill of this size without knowing that you can pay for it? These are all the big questions out there, Steve, and the Australian taxpayers, and your listeners, deserve answers.

AUSTIN: Anthony Albanese, thanks for coming on this afternoon.

ALBANESE: Thanks very much.

ENDS