SUBJECTS: Labor's $300 vaccine incentive. 

STEVE AUSTIN, HOST: Presenting the Federal Government to give $300 to every Australian who has both doses of the vaccine by the first of December. I'm sure you've been following the debate, the Prime Minister has criticised the proposal, saying Australians don't want to be paid off. Finance Minister Simon Birmingham ruled out the idea describing it as insulting. However, then revealed the Government was considering non-financial incentives and now there's also talk about some sort of lottery. Well, Anthony Albanese is the Federal Labor Leader in Australia. And I spoke to him late this afternoon and asked him to explain his thinking on the $300 cash payment idea.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Well, what we know is that the Chief Medical Officer earlier this year, Dr. Kelly spoke about the need for economic incentives. And indeed, in the four-phase plan that went to the National Cabinet last Friday, and was announced, Phase B includes incentives to be there. We know that economic incentives can change behaviour, and we need to do everything we can, use all tools at our disposal to increase those vaccination rates. But also at the same time, of course, given the economy is really struggling as a result of this lockdown, a $300 injection would be an economic stimulus to protect jobs, and to reward people for doing the right thing in what's been a really tough couple of years for Australia.

AUSTIN: So you think sort of the carrot approach is better than the stick approach to get people vaccinated? 

ALBANESE: Well, I think we need to have this conversation and one of the things that would happen if this was in place, is that you'd have conversations at the local pub when people were allowed to go, the local bowling club, around local communities, around the P&C and after-school pick up, "have you got $300 yet"?, "oh well I was thinking of getting a vaccine and now I'm going to bring it forward". One of the things that is very common out there is people saying yes, I'll get vaccinated but I'm not really in a rush - particularly people in communities where they haven't been lockdowns. And that's why you see the lockdowns changing behaviour. You see the queues forming immediately as there is a lockdown because it does signal to people that sense of urgency, which is there. 

AUSTIN: That's the real problem don't you think Anthony Albanese, that for some reason Australians don't have a sense of urgency about getting vaccinated, or at least having had up until recently?

ALBANESE: Well, that certainly has been an issue. And the other issue, of course, is that because of supply problems that go to the heart of why Australia is languishing last in the developed world in terms of vaccination rates, people simply haven't been able to. So they've tried to make appointments, and just been unable to get vaccinated. I know that there were shortages when I was in Gladstone, when I was in Maryborough and indeed, in Logan, where I visited just last week with Jim Chalmers at the Entertainment Centre there. What the doctors said was that if they had more vaccines, they could put them in more arms. But at the moment, the supply issues that are there are for Queensland and indeed for the whole country as a result of essentially botching the order of vaccines and not getting enough here soon enough.

HOST: In today's Australian newspaper, Lieutenant General John Frewin, the man responsible for the logistics of the rollout and Marylouise McLaws, the epidemiologists have apparently stated we don't need incentives right now. Why do you think this is given what you just told me?

ALBANESE: Well, that's a matter for them. But there's a whole range of economists that have looked at behaviour and are doing it and very supportive that articles today by Peter Martin, for example, from the Crawford School of Public Policy at the IMU, other articles from economists point towards ...

AUSTIN: Steven Hamilton from the Blueprint Institute thought it would be, could be the nudge Australians need. I take that point, that medicos are saying it's not the incentive we need right now.

ALBANESE: Well, he's not a medico with due respect to Lieutenant General Frewin.

AUSTIN: He's not okay, But Marylouise McLaws is and Professor Peter Collignon, previously as well.

ALBANESE: Well, the basis of the four phase plan that was announced as a result of the modelling done by the Doherty Institute that was released last Friday speaks about incentives. And one of the things that I've seen some commentary is "oh we just don't need it just at the moment" and that's because the supply isn't there at the moment. But one of the things that we need to do, we need to be much better at, is not waiting until there's a crisis, not waiting until it's too late but projecting forward, giving people information about what's needed and which is why we haven't said this incentive should be there just for a couple of weeks in order to boost numbers now, but as supply comes particularly in that fourth quarter of the year, that this incentive would be there between now well, backdated, of course, up to December 1.

AUSTIN: The Prime Minister has, you know, has dismissed your idea, but apparently has said is open to the idea of a lottery. Do you see much of a difference? 

ALBANESE: Well, you know, this is a Prime Minister, who if someone comes up with a constructive suggestion, rejects it, and then adopts it down the track or adopts a version of it. The fact is, that this Prime Minister also said that the idea of wage subsidies was a dangerous idea when Labor, the business community, and indeed, the union movement, said it was necessary last year. It was only when the queues formed around the corner of Centrelink offices that the Government introduced JobKeeper, which was an important thing that happened but the Prime Minister should have considered this idea. It was rejected within minutes of it being proposed. It is something that's happening around the world. It's something that the Biden Administration is supportive of, it's something that various European Governments are doing. In our own region, they're doing some different things. In Indonesia, you can get a chicken if you're fully vaccinated. There are various incentives in place, but an incentive of $300 to each and every Australian who gets fully vaccinated is far better in my view than a lottery, which produces a couple of winners and no one else gets anything. Perhaps the Government just didn't recognise the idea of not doing things just marginal seats or doing things politically - doing things universally across the board.

AUSTIN: This is ABC Radio Brisbane. My guest is the Leader of the Labor Party in Australia, Anthony Albanese. Steve Austin is my name. You mentioned that the difficulties that the economy is having, as I understand that when the lockdown ease, the economy bounces back very strongly. In other words, there's a whole lot of pent up demand. But here in Queensland the State Government is copping significant criticism for a business support package that won't support a majority of the businesses which are late in coming and doesn't actually address the problem that businesses are finding. Can you speak at all to your state Labor counterparts and ask them if they could give more support for sole operator? These are often the husband and wife businesses here in Queensland. And they're very small businesses that are really, that's where the economic difficulty is, not the major companies, but the sole operators.

ALBANESE: Well we're argued the whole way through that if the Federal Government had got the targeting better, not given $13 billion to companies that have increased their profits and we know which ones they are - they're the ones with wrap-arounds in the daily newspaper that have done extremely well, then we could have funded more businesses, the art sector, the university sector, casual employees. All those people who've missed out and one of the things... 

AUSTIN: We'll ask you about the States. So you don't think the State Government here needs to do anything to support small business? 

ALBANESE: Well, I'm not aware of all of the details of each of the State plans. I know that Federally, one of the things that we have called for is a much closer replication of the former JobKeeper program because was it did was fund businesses, including small businesses, which had a reduction in their turnover as a direct result of COVID and one of the things that we know is that so many businesses in Queensland, when I was visiting there a couple of weeks ago, told me in places like Mackay and Cairns, and Bundaberg and Maryborough, that they're missing out even though they're not a part of any lockdown, but of course they've reliant upon visitors from New South Wales and Victoria and of course, that has dried up. So those businesses aren't getting the support from the Federal Government through what was the former JobKeeper program, but they would have if it had been implemented. 

AUSTIN: I'll leave it there - Anthony Albanese, thanks for your time. 

ALBANESE: Thanks very much.

ENDS