SUBJECTS: Canberra lockdown; vaccine rollout; need for national quarantine facilities; Howard Springs; hotel quarantine; vaccine supply; IPCC Report; climate change; renewables; net zero by 2050; gas and fracking; environmental regulations and assessments; electric vehicles; laksa cheesecake.

JO LAVERTY, HOST: The Federal Opposition Leader, he was meant to be in Darwin this morning, where it's nice and warm. He could have maybe tried one of those incredible cocktails. But instead, Anthony Albanese is still in Canberra. Hello, Anthony Albanese. Are you doing all right, Anthony Albanese?

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Thanks for rubbing it in Jo. Canberrans are doing it tough. But they're making sacrifices, like people all around Australia, to keep each other safe. Unfortunately, half the country's in lockdown. And that's because we failed on vaccines and on quarantine. And this morning I was going to be at Howard Springs having another look at the only purpose-built quarantine facility that we have anywhere in the country. And it's until we get that right and until we lift our vaccination rates, unfortunately, we will continue to have these outbreaks.

LAVERTY: I think it's a bit of a misnomer that Howard Springs is a purpose-built vaccine facility. And of course, here we know that in fact, it's a workers' campsite. It was like a, what's the saying, an albatross around the neck of the Territory Government when it was handed over to them. And they were having to pay 30 grand a month to keep it from going mouldy.

ALBANESE: But it is being used now.

LAVERTY: It sure is. 

ALBANESE: And of course, around the country there are former quarantine centres, including at North Head in my home city of Sydney, and right around the country that date from a century ago. We haven't built any fit-for-purpose facilities, new. We should have been doing that. But the point is, once you do it, it's not a waste of asset. It can be used for any range of things, be it the Q Station there at Manly for accommodation and functions. Right around the country that is similarly the case. And it's unfortunate that the Government hasn't seen it fit to do it. Because Howard Springs, of course, does work because it doesn't have the problems with ventilation, you're able to have separation. When I was there last time, they spoke about how meals are delivered carefully only a couple of times a day, but multiple meals of course. And there's been no outbreaks there. It's unlike every capital city where we have hotels in the middle of our CBDs being used for hotel quarantine. But of course, they are built for tourists, not for quarantine.

LAVERTY: So you have pointed out that the vaccination campaign in Australia is really not going as well as it could. There is no purpose-built quarantine facility in Australia. Happily, in the Northern Territory, we have repurposed something which is as good as a purpose-built quarantine facility. And if we are to believe the polls anymore, it does suggest that the Prime Minister's popularity and preference as the Prime Minister is going down. So is Scott Morrison ripe for the picking at the moment?

ALBANESE: I'm just concerned about doing the right thing, being constructive as we have been during the pandemic, putting forward positive ideas, like our idea for a cash incentive of $300 for people who are fully vaccinated, that we've continued to argue will be needed, some form of economic incentive, you can't just have sticks, you've got to get people out there who might be sitting around and going, 'Oh, yeah, I'll get around to having a vaccine but what's the rush?' You need to actually give it a hurry up. The problem has supply of vaccines. And finally, Moderna, which was being put into people's arms in the United States last year and in Europe at the beginning of this year, finally has had provisional approval from the TGA, but we don't have that vaccine here yet.

LAVERTY: It is not really the supply of vaccine, is it, Anthony Albanese? I mean, we've got the AstraZeneca. You can get an AstraZeneca shot. It's more very much around the advice of the vaccine guidance council, ATAGI, who have made these decisions, which are very much out of the control of the Prime Minister, aren't they?

ALBANESE: Well, that is not right. It was within the Prime Minister's remit last year to not posture and say we were at the front of the queue when we were way, way, way at the back of the queue. And what other countries did when issues arose with AstraZeneca, and I certainly think if people can get that vaccine, they should, but when issues arose in the United Kingdom, for example, they just substituted Moderna and Pfizer. It didn't become the issue. It became the issue here because we simply didn't order enough quantity of enough vaccines early enough. And that's why we've found ourselves in this situation. But for a whole range of people, they have been trying to book any vaccine that was available for month after month after month and simply they haven't had the opportunity to do that.

LAVERTY: And why is that? Is that around Pfizer or AstraZeneca? 

ALBANESE: It's around supply. There hasn't been enough supply. I have visited places from Gladstone to Maryborough, be they GP clinics, be they the issue of mass vaccination centres at Logan in southeast Queensland. They told us they just didn't have enough vaccines.

LAVERTY: Is that including AstraZeneca? 

ALBANESE: Yes. Pharmacists weren't used until very recently. Why is it the case? Pharmacists were crying out saying, 'We want to be used. We are available'. That's how I get my flu vaccine every year, from my local pharmacist. And yet, they weren't brought on to give any vaccine at all, including AstraZeneca, until recent times.

LAVERTY: The Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese, is with me now. He was supposed to be in Darwin. Unfortunately, he is in Canberra in the lockdown. Let's go to the IPCC, the International Panel on Climate Change, report, which came out earlier this weekend. Really set alarm bells around the world, stating that the earth is warming much quicker than we expected. It's definitely human led, and the things that we need to do about it if we are going to avert crisis, which is kind of imminent according to this report. Do you think that the country's recovery, Australia's recovery, from COVID should be gas led?

ALBANESE: I think that what we need to do is to make sure we recognise the IPCC's findings and act on them. I've never said that sort of posture, frankly, is the posture of the Government. Gas has a role to play. But overwhelmingly, the best form and cheapest form of new energy in Australia is, of course, renewables. It's not just the cheapest form or best form for Australia that the market is showing, projects like the largest solar plant in the world, a solar farm that will be built there in the Northern Territory to export energy to Singapore. That shows us the opportunity that's there for jobs for our economy if we're smart and if we become a renewable energy superpower. And so out of this crisis that is there, when it comes to dealing with our climate, is also opportunity.

LAVERTY: We do have a lot of sun. But we also have a lot of gas. And the Federal Government has offered $50 million to the gas industry for exploration in the Beetaloo Basin, which has begun and is showing positive results. Do you support those handouts to fossil fuel companies, Anthony Albanese?

ALBANESE: Well, they are a decision for the Government, not for us. What I support is making sure that we use the cheapest form of energy that is available. And we have been having a fight recently here over ARENA, for example, the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, which the Government tried to abolish and then has tried to take funds that were built, obviously, for renewables from the renewables agency and use them for other purposes. Now, some of those purposes are fine. And we haven't objected to the Government looking at the full range of measures that might be needed to meet our needs and to create economic opportunity. But what we don't support is the destruction of agencies like ARENA, or, for that matter, the Clean Energy Finance Corporation. And we also don't support the creation of funds like the Emergency Response Fund that was created, of course, with $4 billion in it, but they haven't allocated it and it has sat untouched for two years. Now, we need to build resilience. And speaking to someone in Darwin, I don't need to outline the damage that an extreme weather event can create for a city or for a region. And we saw that with the bushfires last year. This Government have not got its priorities right. They aren't taking action. And one of the things we need to do is to start planning for a more resilient economy, planning for better jobs and future jobs that will take advantage of those opportunities.

LAVERTY: Just on the economy, a better economy and more jobs, in the Territory there are a lot of opportunities attached to gas and fracking. And as you've said, deciding to give $50 million to the gas industry for exploration, that's a decision for the Government. But should you take Government in May, which I assume is your aim, would you support fracking in the Northern Territory?

ALBANESE: We would support issues based upon the environmental assessments that are done at the time. And one of the things I won't be dealing with is hypotheticals in terms of the future. What you need to do is to have appropriate, rigorous environmental assessments. If they're done, then the economic situation will determine whether projects go ahead. 

LAVERTY: We've got an environmental assessment already done around fracking in the Northern Territory, the Pepper Report. Have you had a chance to have a look at that yet? 

ALBANESE: No, I haven't. 

LAVERTY: So there are, obviously, a lot of recommendations that come in the Pepper Report, some of them have been accepted, some of them have sort of been altered a little bit by the Northern Territory Labor Government. And it was the Labor Government that put a moratorium on fracking in the first instance here in the Northern Territory, only to have the Pepper Report come through and allow for exploration. I did speak to the Chief Minister earlier this week and asked him why he continues to support fracking, given the results of the IPCC report earlier this week. And he said, 'At this stage, it's just for exploration'. So the next step might be really important, not only for the Northern Territory Government, but also for what you would intend to do as Prime Minister, should you take that role. And every day, you deal with hypotheticals, don't you, Anthony Albanese? This is what being in Parliament is all about, isn't it?

ALBANESE: No, it's not. It is actually is precisely what it's not about. 

LAVERTY: Okay. I don't want to get hung up on the terminology around hypothetical points. But if you do take Government, and given that the Pepper Report is there, and I assume you'll get a chance to look at it at some point, would you support fracking?

ALBANESE: I would consider the environmental assessments. 

LAVERTY: This is ABC Radio Darwin. It is quarter to nine. So that's neither a yes or a no then. So we don't really know where you stand on fracking in the Northern Territory?

ALBANESE: No. It's something based upon fact. What you do is you have rigorous environmental assessments. And that's the role of government. That's the role of government to oversee those rigorous environmental assessments. As you know, the Chief Minister there in the Northern Territory, who I was due to meet today, of course, face to face, but now won't have that opportunity, I think he's doing a fantastic job planning for economic development in the Northern Territory, but based upon appropriate environmental regulations.

LAVERTY: What about in other parts of Australia? And I only want to talk about fracking for a moment more. But in other parts of Australia, where there have been those environmental impact studies done, do you support fracking in those parts of Australia?

ALBANESE: I support appropriate environmental regulation and appropriate rigorous assessments. Obviously, there was a proposal, for example, for fracking, under parts of Sydney that were entirely inappropriate based upon the environmental assessments.

LAVERTY: During the last Federal election, Federal Labor went to the voters with a fairly comprehensive environmental plan around what they were going to do to reduce emissions. And one of those things was around electric vehicles, which the Scott Morrison Government was able to pick up fairly quickly and say, 'They're trying to ruin your weekend with electric vehicles'. 

ALBANESE: No, end the weekend, actually.

LAVERTY: End the weekend. That's right. End the weekend. So they're very, very good at hitching themselves to your environmental ideas and pulling them apart in the mind of the voters. And we saw this with Julia Gillard, who was proposing the carbon pricing scheme, which was the death of that particular Prime Ministership in the end. Are you brave enough to go to the next election with your own environmental campaign, something that you're going to really pin your colours to this mast and tell people, 'This is what we stand for'?

ALBANESE: We're doing it. But one of the reasons why we don't deal with hypothetical is because that's a dry gully that doesn't end well. So for example, on electric vehicles, what we have put forward is a plan to make electric vehicles cheaper. We have said there will be a transition, and it's happening, with increased use of EVs that has to be part of lowering our emissions. And again, that's one of opportunity. We should be making more manufacturing associated with EVs here. We all are already producing, through Tritium in southeast Queensland, the fastest EV charging stations in the world that are being exported to Europe and the United States. We've said we will reduce, for lower costs electric vehicles, we will abolish tariffs. We will get rid of fringe benefits tax to encourage fleet take up of electric vehicles. And that's how you'll increase their penetration into the market, by providing those incentives, by lowering costs of electric vehicles. We have a plan for $20 billion dollars to fix transmission so that renewables can be a part of stabilising the grid through our Rewiring the Nation plan. And that's one of the big things that we need to do at the moment. The grid is built for last century's technology, not this century's technology. We have announced a plan for community batteries so that we can actually use the take up that is there with so many solar panels, where we have the highest number per capita of solar panels in the world but we aren't storing that energy, we aren't contributing that energy to the grid as efficiently as we could if we had more battery usage. So we certainly see that the transition to a clean energy economy is one that can create jobs and can create economic activity, make us more efficient and help the economy grow. 

LAVERTY: Have you got a net zero target in mind?

ALBANESE: We do. We have net zero by 2050, which was one of the first things that I announced. 

LAVERTY: And how has that changed since the IPCC Report, which says we need to get that down, ideally, by 2030?

ALBANESE: It doesn't say that. I have looked at the IPCC Report. It doesn't say that. The IPCC, and that will go to the Glasgow conference, the world has determined that net zero by 2050 is what we have to aim towards. And Labor, I announced that as one of the first announcements I made when I became Labor Leader.

LAVERTY: So you're happy to stick with net zero by 2050. Do you think it needs to be brought ahead of that?

ALBANESE: Well, it's by 2050. Obviously, if you could do it sooner. But that's the announcement that we have made. That's the policy we have. And I think that is a pathway to get there. That is important. And that requires action on energy, action on transport, action on efficiency, action on agriculture. It requires a comprehensive plan to get there.

LAVERTY: And just to clarify, the IPCC Report does say that global warming is likely to increase to 1.5 degrees Celsius by about 2030 on the current trajectory. And unless we stop all emissions now, which is very unlikely, of course, that trajectory is on path. So something needs to be done by 2030 according to the report.

ALBANESE: But it doesn't call for net zero by 2030. It doesn't do that. Because the scientists who are there, engaged in this, know that is not a realistic option. And what you need to do, if you're going to have an objective, it's got to be an objective which is achievable, I hope, obviously, if things can be done as soon as possible. We know what's required, which is to get to net zero emissions. But you have to have a target that's achievable. Otherwise, people will think, 'What's the point, we're not going to get there anyway'.

LAVERTY: Anthony Albanese, I feel like our relationship, it's off to a rocky start. There was that time you were in here and I made you eat my Laksa cheesecake and you were very polite.

ALBANESE: You did. I did do it. But it was pretty ordinary.

LAVERTY: At the time you said it was okay. That's a big downgrade for me. Now I've pointed out how lovely it is here compared with Canberra. But we would have loved to have seen you in Darwin and we look forward to seeing you next time.

ALBANESE: Send me a postcard. 

LAVERTY: Wouldn't you love that? Just pictures of everything that we are doing this weekend. Thank you so much for your time today. See you later. 

ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Jo. 

LAVERTY: That is Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese.

ENDS