SUBJECTS: Rapid antigen tests; aged care; hospitals; schools; federation reform. 
 
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Anthony Albanese, welcome to the program.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning.
 
SPEERS: So, can you clear this up for us? If you win the election, who would be able to access free rapid antigen tests?
 
ALBANESE: Well, they would be available on the basis of need. And we've seen today the New South Wales Government respond to the crisis that's there in the small business sector, where they're saying they'll make available, through a rebate system, rapid antigen tests, because they know they're the key to keeping businesses open, to keeping people employed, to keeping the economy going. It's only the federal government that have been so complacent here. You showed the quote from the Prime Minister in August, Greg Hunt was saying similar things, and they did nothing to order rapid antigen tests. The tender was issued this month. 
 
SPEERS: So, when you say they'd be provided on the basis of need, what does that mean?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what that means, for example, is that if you're a teacher or you work at a medical centre. I visited a medical centre in Townsville. The people who work at that medical centre need to be tested every day, because they're coming into contact with patients coming into the medical unit.
 
SPEERS: They’re not getting that at the moment?
 
ALBANESE: They’re not getting that at the moment. There’s not getting this no supply. Everywhere I've been around this entire country, there has been an issue with a failure of supply and that is creating major issues. An aged care facility, you have aged care facilities shut around the country because there aren't enough rapid antigen tests available for the staff. That's having enormous consequences. David. There are over 20,000 either staff or residents who've been impacted by COVID.
 
SPEERS: The Government says it has provided the rapid tests for aged care.
 
ALBANESE: Well, I have visited aged care centres and spoken to providers and the aged care sector. The Government always says everything's okay. That's the problem here, David. This is a Government that say everything's all sweet until a problem becomes an absolute crisis and then they act. You've had the former Premier of New South Wales, Mike Baird, call for the Defence Force to come into aged care facilities to make beds. We know that people who are aged care residents are currently suffering from not getting a meal, not being able to get showered, not getting their wounds tended. The interim Royal Commission into Aged Care was titled 'Neglect', and what we're seeing at the moment is neglect in the aged care sector.
 
SPEERS: And that's bigger than just rapid antigen test, but sticking with rats, teachers, medical health workers, aged care workers, who else would get a free rapid test under your approach?
 
ALBANESE: Well, people would (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: Everybody?
 
ALBANESE: Yes, through the Medicare system. But we need to deal with that now and that's what should have been provided. That's what's happening in other parts of the world. David, this is not a radical proposition.
 
SPEERS: It's a little different in different countries, but just sticking with your idea. So, if someone wants to go and see the grandparents and wants to take a rapid test before doing so, they would get a free test kit?
 
ALBANESE: They should be available through the Medicare schedule. You would have a limit, as there is. The Government's put a limit on concession card holders.
 
SPEERS: So that's a certain number every month or so?
 
ALBANESE: That's right. That's a way that you can control supply. It's not rocket science here. That's the benefit of having Australia's Medicare system. But what you've had from this Government is a let it rip approach when it comes to the market delivering and the market hasn't delivered.
 
SPEERS: Okay, just to be clear, you're talking not just about people at risk or symptomatic, you're talking about making them available free for people who just want to check or surveillance testing at work?
 
ALBANESE: Correct. Not unlimited, you would have limits based upon the health advice, David. But the health advice and the economic consequences are very clear. If you don't get good health outcomes, you get worse economic outcomes. That's the lesson of this pandemic in its third year. Every time this government has said it's not a race, every time they've been complacent, every time they've failed to act, every time they've been all sunny about the future and we're going to be all around the Christmas table without acting, the consequences for the economy had been more dire, there have been more jobs lost, more small businesses closed because of that failure.
 
SPEERS: And the cost of doing this, have you thought about that yet?
 
ALBANESE: Well we of course will have all of our policies going forward fully costed, but we're seeing right now, we're seeing right now, the New South Wales Government stepping up with their announcements today for small business stepping into the void of national leadership which is there because Scott Morrison doesn't hold a hose and he won't do what he needs to do when it comes to rapid antigen tests.
 
SPEERS: You're also announcing plans today to prioritise Australian-made rapid test kits and other medical technology when it comes to government procurement, the government buying the stuff. What would that mean in the case of rapid antigen tests?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what it would mean is two things. One, we need immediate supply so some of that will obviously need to be overseas purchase. But the truth is that there's one company in Brisbane that's currently exporting 100,000 tests a day to the United States.
 
SPEERS: Is this Ellume?
 
ALBANESE: Yes. And they wanted to establish a manufacturing facility, they wanted to ramp it up here. They approached the federal government and the federal government wasn't interested but the US government was.
 
SPEERS: Well they haven't received approval from the Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia.
 
ALBANESE: But the US Government are manufacturing these tests, with massive plants in the United States.
 
SPEERS: There's also been a massive recall of that product in the United States.
 
ALBANESE: Well, in terms of the the range of projects that can be produced here in Australia, I'm visiting a factory here in Melbourne tomorrow, which is about manufacturing here. One of the lessons (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: Just coming back to this issue about, sure they might be made here, but they've had some problems in the US and they haven't received TGA approval in Australia. How would you overcome that?
 
ALBANESE: Well, the TGA needs to be respected its processes but the point (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: But they say they working as hard as they can, but some companies making, in the words of John Skerritt, the head of the TGA, some companies make false claims about what their test kits can do.
 
ALBANESE: Sure, that' right. Which is why you need to respect TGA processes. But the point here is David, we need to manufacture rapid engines and tests here. One of the lessons of this pandemic is that we need to be more self reliant and one of the things that we'll do is, established through our National Reconstruction Fund, support for Australian-made manufacturing. During this pandemic, we haven't had enough PPE equipment. We haven't had enough ventilators. We haven't been able to produce and use here rapid antigen tests. We're still not producing mRNA vaccines, even though the Industry Minister two ago said that it would be produced in the next nine to 12 months. And that was 18 months ago.
 
SPEERS: That was on this program in fact. Let's talk about, more broadly, the health problems. You've been talking about the overstretched health system, overworked health workers. What would you actually do about it? Do you plan to boost health funding?
 
ALBANESE: Well, quite clearly, there will be a need for increased health funding. But there's a need also to look at particular areas of funding. GPs for example. One of the reasons why there's so much pressure on the hospitals is that we have GP shortages in terms of training. We have GP shortages in terms of some of the changes that they've made to the medication schedule that have had an impact in our regions. The other thing is (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: Would you pay GPs more?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it's a matter of supply and a range of measures. One of the things that we would do is restore some of the changes that have been made and we've announced that taking away support for GPs in places like the Hunter and Lake Macquarie, for example. We've already announced that. The other thing that you could do, David, and it's connected with industry policy and manufacturing, point of care tests. There are tests that are available so that you can test whether people have diabetes, whether they're vulnerable to heart issues, whether they have a viral infection, what the appropriate, whether it's they need antibiotics, or they need an anti viral, that can be done at at GPs. At point of care, so close close up. That will be able to minimise and reduce the costs of care being given. It's a bit like one of the reasons for the rollout of the National Broadband Network in terms of fibre was about healthcare being okay. 
 
SPEERS: Just coming back to the question about hospitals, which you've been talking a lot about, would you boost hospital funding? Would you give the states what they're asking for? They want the Commonwealth to commit to an extra increase in funds. Labor at the last election promised to lift the Commonwealth contribution of 50 per cent. Will you make that promise?
 
ALBANESE: We'd sit down with the states and territories and we will look at all of those health funding issues and we'll have a lot more to say.
 
SPEERS: Why can't you make a promise before the election like last time?
 
ALBANESE: We can make lots of promises before the election, David, but we can't make all of them on Insiders today.
 
SPEERS: But will you promise to increase health before the election?
 
ALBANESE: We will have a range of commitments. We've announced, David, since December, we've announced a range of policies right across the board.
 
SPEERS: I know that. Aged care, you talked about that just a few minutes ago. Will you increase aged care funding?
 
ALBANESE: Aged care funding needs to be increased but the other thing that's needed, there's already been a funding boost but I'll tell you what (interrupted) 
 
SPEERS: Will you go further? 
 
ALBANESE: Yes. There are two things they haven't done. One is they haven't tied that funding to actually delivery of better health care for aged care residents in terms of some of the regulatory measures that are required that were recommended by the Royal Commission. But the big missing piece is workforce. We still don't have a commitment to have a nurse in a nursing home. We still don't have a commitment to increase numbers of other care workers in aged care. And we still don't have a commitment to increases in wages and conditions so that aged care facilities are able to attract the staff. All of those issues. So I'll tell you one thing we would do right now: there's a case before the Fair Work Commission for an increase in wages for aged care staff. The federal government should be making a submission to that, to the Commission, supporting an increase in wages.
 
SPEERS: That'll be up to the independent umpire. Things that you can do, though, what about schools? You've talked to about kids falling behind. Even before COVID struck, at the last election, Labor promised a big increase in school funding. Will you promise to increase school funding at all?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what we've said is Labor continues to support, I said this at the National Press Club, needs based funding. The next agreement is up from January 2024 and we'll be negotiating with the states and territories through that process if we're successful.
 
SPEERS: But you can't offer anything to voters before the election?
 
ALBANESE: It's a subject for agreement between the Commonwealth and states but Labor's position on education, we've already announced a whole range of policies and specific ones. Early childhood education $6.2 billion, moving towards universal provision of affordable childcare. That's an education policy as well as an economic policy and a productivity boost. We've announced 465,000 free TAFE places, we've announced 20,000 additional University places. On schools, we announced this week, capital funding for schools and a particular program to help with the welfare for children coming back who have suffered under the pandemic. And with regard to the funding scheduled going forward to 2024, of course, that's subject of negotiation between the Commonwealth and the states.
 
SPEERS: JobSeeker? You said you'd tell us before the election whether you'd increase the rate of the unemployment benefit. Is that still something you'll do? 
 
ALBANESE: What I've said is that every Budget should consider whether the Commonwealth's in a position to improve the JobSeeker rate, and that would be something that we would consider (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: You'd think about that in government, too? 
 
ALBANESE: Well, we consider on the basis that it's something that should always be (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: But you won't go to the election saying 'we will increase the unemployment benefit? 
 
ALBANESE: It's something that should be considered in every Budget, just like the Commonwealth should consider issues like pensions and other payments.
 
SPEERS: What about further business support? If things get bad with Covid over winter, would you be prepared to offer more business support?
 
ALBANESE: Well, David, one of the things you notice as you go around any shopping centre in the country is the number of empty shop fronts. And business is really doing a tough. You've had consumer confidence in decline. You've had people essentially imposing their own restrictions on their activity. And that's really hurting small business. There are a whole range of sectors as well who've continued to be left behind by this (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: Should they be getting more federal support now? 
 
ALBANESE: I would like to see, where the conditions are there that were the same for giving support before, why is it that this support has been completely (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: The Treasurer points out that credit card spending is higher than it was during the Delta lock down at the moment.
 
ALBANESE: Well, that's because people are buying things online. It's not rocket science. People aren't going out to shops and one of the ways that you do that is through a credit card. And it says it all about the Treasurer and how out of touch he is, the fact that he doesn't seem to understand how tough small business is doing it at the moment.
 
SPEERS: When do you think Budget repair should start?
 
ALBANESE: Budget repair should start before now. We should be considering, I'll tell you one thing we can do (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: You're talking about spending more on various areas: aged care, health and so on. Are you saying we should be spending less or more?
 
ALBANESE: It was entirely appropriate for the Commonwealth to step up and spend during, to stimulate the economy during the pandemic just as it was during the Global Financial Crisis. What's not appropriate is the pork barreling and waste that we've seen. What's not appropriate is the fact that the Commonwealth didn't put in place any mechanism, for example on JobKeeer, to ensure that money didn't go to people who didn't need it, that we're increasing their profits. That's something like $20 billion at least has gone to that purpose.
 
SPEERS: But if you become PM, will you start repairing the Budget bottom line?
 
ALBANESE: I've already said, David, one of the things that we shouldn't have is $16 billion at the moment in 'decisions taken but not announced' for political decisions going forward, that taxpayers money is going to be spent, but they won't tell taxpayers what it's going to be spent on. That sort of reckless abuse of taxpayers funds has to stop, and we would stop it, and we'd also stop it by having an anti corruption commission which would also have an impact on some of the expenditure that we're seeing from this government.
 
SPEERS: Couple of quick ones. You supported WA's decision to keep its border shut. As an aspiring Prime Minister, don't you want to see one set of rules nationally when it comes to borders?
 
ALBANESE: Of course I do. But we have a Prime Minister who chairs National Cabinet where the state premiers tell each other what they're going to do and he announces it.
 
SPEERS: What should Mark McGowan do, though?
 
ALBANESE: Well, Mark McGowan should listen to the health advice. I'm not going to, one of the things I haven't done, David, is criticised Mark McGowan or Peter Gutwein or Stephen Marshall, or, for that matter, Dom Perrottet, for decisions that have been made. I haven't played the game that the Prime Minister has of just criticising state premiers like Annastacia Palaszczuk because she's of a different political colour. Mark McGowan has done a magnificent job of keeping West Australian safe. And the other thing that's happened, from a Commonwealth perspective, if I was the Treasurer or the finance minister, I'd say thank goodness for Mark McGowan and Western Australians. Because if it wasn't for them keeping the economy going so successfully, the two most successful economies have been WA and Queensland, and they are the two economies that, in WA's case, Scott Morrison joined Clive Palmer in a court case to try and rip down their borders.
 
SPEERS: Just finally then. National Cabinet, would you stick with it or would you go back to COAG, or would you have some sort of hybrid in between?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I would stick with having a National Cabinet process. It worked well at the beginning before the Prime Minister walked away from it, essentially, and we walked away from more national consistency. But we also need to have Federation reform and COAG played an important role in that. The sort of productivity benefits that come from micro economic reform, through national consistency, through removing duplication, all of that seems to have disappeared. As a Minister, I was very proud, that didn't didn't make the lead beginning of Insiders or anything else, but moving from 23 transport regulators down to three, so consistent rules - heavy vehicles, rail and maritime - will boost our national economy but $30 billion over 20 years ago. That's all been forgotten.
 
SPEERS: So you'd have National Cabinet continue but have some regular COAG-style ministerial meetings?
 
ALBANESE: Well you need to involve as well the bureaucracies and you need to involve ministers. One of the problems with Scott Morrison's government is it is so centralised, everything goes through the PMO.
 
SPEERS: Sure, but just to be clear on that, you'd have the regular weekly or fortnightly National Cabinet during crisis times?
 
ALBANESE: During crisis. We would hope that we won't need weekly or fortnightly meetings of the National Cabinet (interrupted)
 
SPEERS: But then COAG-style ministerial meeting in the future?
 
ALBANESE: Yes, you would need to involve, I want to run a Hawke-style Cabinet Government. One that gives responsibility to ministers to drive reform, and part of driving reform in this country is to boost productivity through micro economic reform. Look at how we get growth, look at how we get more national consistency, and you can't do that if there's no structure to drive it.
 
SPEERS: Anthony Albanese. Thanks very much for joining us.
 
ALBANESE: Thanks, David.
 
ENDS