SUBJECTS: Federal election; Campaigning; Climate policy; Wages; Fair Work Commission; Cost of living; Labor’s Plan for Cheaper Child Care; Gender pay gap; Independents; National Anti-Corruption Commission; Honesty in politics.
 
RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Anthony Albanese is the ALP member for the seat of Grayndler in the glorious city of Sydney. He is also of course the Leader of the Opposition. Thanks for coming in.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good to be here, Raph.

EPSTEIN: How many states have you been in today?

ALBANESE: This is my fourth. So I woke up at home, unusually, in Sydney. We then, I did some radio from Sydney. I did I AM and did various things, and then flew to Adelaide, where we went to a school with former Prime Minister Julia Gillard …

EPSTEIN: Yeah saw those pictures.

ALBANESE:  … Peter Malinuaskas and it was a great reception there. And then I've been to Launceston. We're handing out at pre poll there with Ross Hart and did some other interviews there. And here I am in the ABC studios in Melbourne.

EPSTEIN: You only landed an hour ago, didn’t you. I got lots of other questions. Does it work? Like, what is the point? You are both doing this insane criss-crossing. Do you know that it actually makes a difference?

ALBANESE: Well, yesterday I was in Brisbane and I spent from Sunday to Tuesday in Perth. And Saturday I was in Darwin and Brisbane. So I think it shows that I want to represent the whole country. And tonight I'll be on 730 here and then I'll be in the electorate of Chisholm talking with workers.

EPSTEIN: Tomorrow?

ALBANESE: Tonight.

EPSTEIN: Tonight?

ALBANESE: Tonight.

EPSEIN: You're going to Chisholm tonight?

ALBANESE: Tonight.

EPSTEIN: Oh, you're doing that whole crazy last-dash thing.

ALBANESE: And then tomorrow morningI'll be doing the brekky TVs from a prominent Melbourne destination, then handing out for a bit and then heading back to my electorate to vote. It's pretty important that everyone vote out there, regardless of who you're going to vote for.

EPSTEIN: I've got lots of questions to get through. But are you going to win Chisholm and Higgins? Everyone in Labor’s very confident about them. Are you confident?

ALBANESE: Well, we'll wait and see tomorrow night. But I certainly think that we've run great candidates and terrific campaigns in both those seats.

EPSTEIN: But you need to win them to win government, don’t you?

ALBANESE: They're important seats. We need to win 76 to get there.

EPSTEIN: Melbourne’s the most important city, right?

ALBANESE: Well, when I'm in Melbourne, Melbourne is the most important city. Earlier on today, Launceston was the most important regional town and Adelaide was the most important city between. The truth is, you just got to get to 76 to form government in your own right and that’s my objective.

EPSTEIN: Let me get to some of the questions. Would you admit to making any mistakes in the campaign?

ALBANESE: Of course.

EPSTEIN: Which ones? Which ones cost you, do you think?

ALBANESE: People make mistakes. I'm a human being. We're not perfect. The key is to deal with it and move on. But I think we've run a very successful campaign.

EPSTEIN: Does it make a difference? Like, if you stuff up a number or don't get an answer or get a tough question, do you think that makes a difference?

ALBANESE: Look some of the campaign, frankly, has been for some of the journalists, dare I say it, more about them than about information and about policies. And I think people get some of the gotcha moments or attempted moments that go on ...

EPSTEIN: But that’s like complaining about the weather, isn’t it?  You can’t do anything about that.

ALBANESE: Yeah, you just move on. That's life. Have we put out a positive campaign? Am I proud of it? Absolutely. We've had a plan for a better future. I don't want to go through all the details, I'm happy to if you let me.

EPSTEIN: Well, we might get some detail but don't do the laundry-list thing.

ALBANESE: We will. But we put forward a really positive agenda. And I think that stands in stark contrast with the government that does act more like an opposition. Just what they're against and running fear and scare campaigns.

EPSTEIN: I will get, there are a few policies want to ask about. But would the young radical Anthony Albanese be disappointed by the small target opposition leader?

ALBANESE: Well, I reject the claim when you've got a serious policy about climate change. And we could have, for example, we could have just stayed in the trenches and dig and dig and dig. What we've done is go out there and search for a policy that now has the support of the Business Council, the National Farmers Federation, the Australian Industry Group, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and the ACTU.

EPSTEIN: The target is barely enough. If every country did what you are aiming for, that's barely enough to get us to get us to safety.

ALBANESE: It’s a transformative policy. And it will end the climate wars. We've got to bring people with you on the policy of change. We had really good policies in government from 2007 to 2013. They didn't last. What you've got to do is have long-term government, bring people with you on a journey of change. Shape that change, because if not, it'll shape you. It's a serious policy, fully costed.

EPSTEIN: So the young radical would be happy with that policy?

ALBANESE: Eighty-two per cent of our national energy market will be renewables in eight years’ time, 82 per cent. The truth is, you know, you can't go from zero to 100 overnight. That's a pretty serious policy. Our policy to drive…

EPSTEIN: Not too many people text in and say that you do have a significantly big difference on climate to the Coalition.

ALBANESE: Well, they should have a look at it. And they should talk to the people who we talk to in science, in the environmental movement, who are really, really backing what we have done. As I said, 82 per cent of the market will be renewables. We need to encourage electric vehicles take-up …

EPSTEIN: You haven't done fuel standards thing. That would make a massive difference. If you ramped up fuel standards that would stop people, give a huge incentive to people. You haven't done that.

ALBANESE: Guess what's going to happen though, with electric vehicles? The fuel standards debate is a debate that's been there for a while. But what is happening in the automotive industry is that they're moving to different fuels. Not about standards of existing fuels, they're moving to electric vehicles. The change is happening. It's happening in buses, in trucks, right across the area even in terms of biofuels for aviation. There is a transformation going on and Australia's missing out. We can be a renewable energy superpower for the world. We can use that cheaper power to power new industries, including advanced manufacturing. I think it's an exciting prospect that we have going forward using our National Reconstruction Fund to support things like, $3 billion of that will be allocated to green steel, green hydrogen. How do we make things more efficiently? Australia is positioned better than anywhere else in the world in terms of our renewable resources, plus our other resources, including rare earths that we can use and can really create that prosperity. And then we have a plan to train Australians for that those jobs through fee-free TAFE and additional university places.

EPSTEIN: Anthony Albanese is who you're listening to. We don't often do politics at quarter past six on a Friday, but hey, this is the ever ongoing, rolling election campaign. I will try to get to some of the questions on texts 0437774774. If you win, you can't actually make sure wages keep up with inflation, can you?

ALBANESE: What you can do is not have a policy that this mob have of deliberately having low wage growth as part of your economic architecture...

EPSTEIN: You don't pay people's wages. You can’t make sure they keep up with inflation.

ALBANESE: What you can do, as established mechanisms, including, we'll make a new submission to the Fair Work Commission now. Now minimum wage workers who are on $20.33. I do not think the world will end if they get an extra dollar an hour. Which is when I was asked about that, I said “absolutely”, if the Fair Work Commission make that decision. What you can also do is put gender pay equity as an objective...

EPSTEIN: Happy to come back to that wages question. But just on a submission to the Fair Work Commission, the Queensland Government right now have got a submission before Fair Work. It says wages should keep pace with inflation. What difference does it make? People might, they might like the fact that you are cheering for their wage to go up with inflation. But in real terms, they're independent. What difference does it make if the government argues for it?

ALBANESE: Well, in real terms, the Fair Work Commission say that they take into account submissions from three groups. From major employers, the ACTU and the government. At the moment, the government submission speaks about the importance of low wages. So we can do much better than that. But also on areas like gender pay equity, when we were last in government was the last time there have been 21 cases in feminised industries, saying that women are not paid the same as men, the structural barriers that are quite clearly there. When we're last in government in 2012, the social and community services award got a significant increase because, in part, the government made a submission supporting that increase. There's a case at the moment for aged care workers. Aged care workers, many of them will earn as little as $22 an hour. It's tough work, it's demanding. It's emotionally tough work. We need to do better or else the industry, the Royal Commission says that people will continue to walk away from the industry. The government making a submission, supporting that, will make a difference.

EPSTEIN: And can I ask though, the biggest issue, or one of the biggest issues, one of the reasons the shine came off Kevin Rudd when he won in 07, he had things like Fuel Watch and Grocery Watch. I'm not saying they're the only issues that helped him to win the election. But a big part of John Howard's loss in 07 was Labor saying, ‘Look, we can make a difference to the money you have in your pocket, and the things that you can buy.’ That stuff just died. Governments don't have that role anyway.
 
ALBANESE: What you can do is make a difference to cost of living. You can do that by having a different wages policy. And of course the Commonwealth is an employer as well, having different attitude …
 
EPSTEIN: You're not going to mandate public servants having wage keeping up with inflation.
 
ALBANESE: … a different attitude towards proper bargaining in that area. You can also, the government can play a role bringing employers and unions together through enterprise bargaining. That's what the Keating Government did. We saw real wage increases. The other thing that you can do is the social wage. People's living standards isn't just made up their pay packet. And our childcare policy will benefit 96 per cent of families.
 
EPSTEIN: Some really rich people will do well out of that.
 
ALBANESE: 96 per cent. Well, childcare is not welfare.
 
EPSTEIN: But if there’s only a certain amount of money to spread around and if the budget, you talked about trillion dollar deficit, why are people on hundreds of thousands of dollars be getting help with childcare?
 
ALBANESE: Why should a woman who might be in a job that pays low- or middle-income be determined, whether she should be able to work a fourth or fifth day, because of the status of her husband? There are many circumstances where that is the case. And the important thing about child care is that just like, if you or I get hurt, we're not on average incomes Raf, I assume. If we get hurt walking out of this building, guess where we'll be taken to? The local public hospital. And we'll get the same health care as someone who is just walking past and earns nothing. That's called universal services. And we have universal services whereby my son went to through the public education system. He got the same as people who were really low income. Child care should be, and we want to move it to, we will have a Productivity Commission review in our first term about whether we move to affordable services universally across the board. I want to get to some of the, because it benefits the whole economy. That's the point, women's workforce participation.
 
EPSTEIN: 1300 222 774. I'll try to get a bit of a wrap up with some calls after Anthony Albanese has finished joining us. The independents. Do you think they have helped democracy? Or did they continue the trend of the major parties losing votes?
 
ALBANESE: I think people participating in our political process is an important part of democracy, whether they be independents, whether they be minor parties, or whether they be from the major parties. Now for myself, I want to be part of a party of government. That's my personal view.
 
EPSTEIN: But those independents are going to take votes off your candidates.
 
ALBANESE: Part of my political philosophy is that, but I respect people who are prepared to put themselves forward as part of the political process and I want people to engage in the political process.
 
EPSTEIN: Monique Ryan, who's challenging Josh Frydenberg in his seat, is basically saying it's up to her because of her pressure, the AEC change the COVID voting rules.
 
ALBANESE: I thought it was my interview on AM this morning.
 
EPSTEIN: Do you think it was you? Do you think it was her?
 
ALBANESE: I think it was a whole combination of things. And it was untenable for the AEC to take the position that they had. But most importantly, what was untenable was Ben Morton, as the Minister presiding over this. Don Farrell, our Shadow Minister had raised it for many days. And the truth is that this is the same government that wanted to introduce, or did introduce legislation, for voter suppression, through Voter IDs. This current government aren't real good when it comes to supporting democratic processes.
 
EPSTEIN: If it's a hung parliament, so if you end up with more seats than the Coalition, but not a majority, would you rather rely on support of the greens or have a handful of independents?
 
ALBANESE: I'll be relying upon the support of my caucus is what I would you rather rely upon.
 
EPSTEIN: Who would you rather rely on? You might need to rely on them.
 
ALBANESE: I want a majority Labor Government tomorrow, and that's my objective.
 
EPSTEIN:  Would you change any of your policies to get support?
 
ALBANESE: No.
 
EPSTEIN: So, what, you’d go back to an election?
 
ALBANESE: Well, that would be up to up to them if they thought that they couldn't decide.
 
EPSTEIN: So, if the independent sticking point was raising your emissions target, you'd say, ‘No, we're going to go to another election’.
 
ALBANESE: We have a policy that works. What we didn't have was a target and then work out how to get there. What we had was a policy that works. And it happened to come out at 43 per cent by 2030. And 82 per cent of the national energy market being renewables.
 
EPSTEIN: Is all that bad blood between the Greens and Labor, is that gone now? Because there used to be some really nasty things said between Labor and the Greens, that's sort of gone now because you've been in opposition for a while.
 
ALBANESE: No, there are real differences between Labor and the Greens party. But people will make their own judgments out there. That doesn't mean that you can't get on okay, on a personal level, but I get on okay with Bob Katter and other people on the cross benches as well.
 
EPSTEIN: You might need him, might you? I just wonder if the history of this weighs on your mind? I think my math is right. In the last 30 years, the ALP has won a majority, I think twice and one in minority makes it three. That's an abysmal record for your party.
 
ALBANESE: We need to do better.
 
EPSTEIN: Does that keep you up at night?
 
ALBANESE: We need to do better. I feel, Raf, I've got to say, a great responsibility. Because people I know and people I'm close to, my friends I know, are just desperate to change the government. And in the last couple of weeks we've had Scott Morrison declare a week ago that even he was distancing himself from Scott Morrison. So, when Scott Morrison says that he's going to change, no one believes that. You've got to change the government if you want to change the direction of the country. And I really believe we need to change the direction of the country.
 
EPSTEIN: There is something significant going on, though, isn't there? I mean, you haven't been able to win majority government, the government is being hollowed out from within. Even if they lose, even if they keep all of those so-called Teal seats, there's a significant thing going on in the cities. There is something significant going on out in the suburbs. Don't you as the leader of one of the big major parties have to recognise that something about the way we are doing business is not working?

ALBANESE: But one of the things I've done, Raf, a core difference tomorrow is whether there's a National Anti-Corruption Commission. I think a lot of people are really disillusioned with politics in general.

EPSTEIN: Yes.

ALBANESE: But they're also disillusioned, in terms of the Liberal base, feels like it's not that they've walked away from the Liberal Party, as they feel like the Liberal Party's walked away from them.

EPSTEIN: But an integrity commission hasn't restored faith in Victoria, in Queensland, in WA. Not saying it's not an important policy, it's a really important policy. It's, it doesn't fix how disgusted people are with mainstream political parties.

ALBANESE: You've got to deal with culture as well. I was Government Leader of the House of Representatives, as you know. There used to be debates, in terms of the Parliament. One of the things I've been criticised for during this campaign is being a journalist have said to me, oh, you're too honest. You actually answer questions.

EPSTEIN: Who said that to you?

ALBANESE: A number of them have said, you know, Mr. Morrison is so clever. He comes out with just a soundbite. You know, like, I think people are over it. People want some honesty in politics. They want genuine engagement. And I think it's a good thing that people are engaged in politics. I I think every time I see people handing out how-to-votes, whoever they're handing out for, that's a good thing. Good on them.

EPSTEIN: Tomorrow night between seven and eight, you're not going to know. You are not going to know.

ALBANESE: Probably not…

EPSTEIN: You're not.

ALBANESE: Probably not.

EPSTEIN: What will you say to yourself, to prepare yourself for whatever the outcome is? You know, not the thing you'd say in the media, but what are the things you say to yourself, to calm yourself or prepare yourself for whatever the outcome is?

ALBANESE: Well, I guess I've already done it. And one of the reasons why I've been to four states today, is that I've left nothing in the tank, nothing on the field, whatever term you know, I've done what, what I can. Labor was devastated, right? That's the truth after 2019. Labor could have been justified, some people would have liked to have, I think, just gone into a corner got in the fetal position, and really just been devastated. I have put us in a position whereby we are competitive at worst.

EPSTEIN: So you're saying I did what I could with what I had?

ALBANESE: I brought us to a position whereby we're a real shot tomorrow of forming a majority Labor government. Will we? Well, we will wait and see, that's up to the voters. But what I know is our base is enthused. Our base is campaigning really hard. And throughout the country, I've been well received and I've had so many conversations with people who have said, this time I am voting Labor. I'm voting for change. And I haven't been a traditional Labor voter but on various issues, whether it be climate policy or strengthening Medicare or childcare, or making more things here, they've changed their view of Labor. And that's why I'm very hopeful of a good result tomorrow.

EPSTEIN: We will see, thank you for coming in.

ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Raf.

EPSTEIN: Anthony Albanese, we'll all find out what 28, maybe 30 hours. Just let's all just pray that we actually find out tomorrow night. Thank you for coming in.

ALBANESE: Hear, hear!
 
ENDS