SUBJECTS: Government’s low emissions technology fund; climate change; Labor’s policy agenda; lack of trust in the Morrison Government; foreign policy; net zero by 2050; methane emissions; COVID recovery; IBAC; Federal election campaign.
 
VIRGINIA TRIOLI, HOST: Anthony Albanese, the Leader of the Opposition, is joining you in the studio this morning. And it's great to see you in situ in the studio, Mr Albanese. Good morning.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: It is very nice to be in the studio, Virginia. I talked to Raf a short time ago, I think it was last week. And I was out in the corridor by a little desk.
 
TRIOLI: That's right. That's where we keep you guys, so no one gives us germs. But clearly, both you and the Prime Minister are happy to be released because you're out and about everywhere at the moment. In fact, you're in Melbourne for the state funeral of Bert Newton.
 
ALBANESE: I am. And to pay tribute to someone who isn't really like a star because he was brighter and closer and warmer than a star. He was like one of us. He was a member of our family growing up. And I had the honour of meeting him on quite a few occasions. And he was just as personable one-on-one.
 
TRIOLI: It'll be a pretty amazing day and a great way to remember him. And we're bringing that state funeral to you live here on ABC Radio Melbourne at 10am. And also streaming that on our Facebook page too. So, you'll be able to see the goings on inside St Patrick's Cathedral at the same time. Mr Albanese, the Prime Minister is off and running for the next election. And after years of people like me asking you, you still haven't released your climate change policy. Have you missed the starter's gun?
 
ALBANESE: Not at all. The Government still hasn't released its modelling. And we've released a range of policies including net zero by 2050, including Rewiring the Nation, a $20 billion plan to fix electricity transmission, including community batteries for solar, including new energy apprenticeships, including a $15 billion National Reconstruction Fund to enable new industries and jobs to grow as a result of the shift to the clean energy economy. So, we'll have more to say. We need to see, of course, the Government modelling. You need to see a government's budget before you have a budget reply, to us an equivalence. And we'll do that. And of course, Glasgow, COP26, is still going. And we await the final communique as well.
 
TRIOLI: But now, don't you run the risk of playing on his turf? He's got there first.
 
ALBANESE: He hasn't got there first, with respect. He has got there last.
 
TRIOLI: I don't know about that. In terms of the framing of this period of time, this election period that we go into, whatever you release now, you are in danger, coldly politically speaking, of looking like you're bringing up the rear. And I just wonder if you are thinking now, whether you've waited too long.
 
ALBANESE: Not at all. We announced net zero by 2050 and said it would be legislated two years ago. It was one of the first commitments I made as Leader of the Labor Party. Scott Morrison got dragged kicking and screaming to it.
 
TRIOLI: But I mean, in a sense, that's really the bare minimum that any sentient government should be doing right now.
 
ALBANESE: Until three days before Scott Morrison left for Glasgow. And now what he's saying, Virginia, is, 'Don't listen to what I said yesterday, because I don't have any regard for it', on issues like electric vehicles, on batteries for renewable energy, on renewable energy targets. Forget all that. Well, if you're saying that you have no regard for what you said yesterday, why should anyone trust or believe what the Prime Minister is saying today? And that was particularly stark with regard to electric vehicles, which he said would end the weekend, said you couldn't tow your trailer or your caravan. And now, he goes to, with no sense of irony at all, goes to the Toyota factory here in Melbourne's western suburbs, that this Government encouraged to leave Australia, manufacturing jobs to leave Australia, and announces, again, not terribly much.
 
TRIOLI: But that's the point, isn't it? I mean, it's such a breathtaking pivot that if you're not out ahead of that, and in advance of it, then you are left in its wake.
 
ALBANESE: But we have been ahead of it, Virginia.
 
TRIOLI: But we have short memories as voters. That that may last for a while. But as the months drag on, clearly in what's going to be a long election campaign, maybe it won't matter what he said all those months and years ago?
 
ALBANESE: Of course, it'll matter. Because he doesn't have any credibility, because he doesn't believe in it. And because his Government are incapable of acting. That's why, Virginia, you had the extraordinary circumstance of the Government going to Glasgow with their 26-28 target that was determined in 2015 by Tony Abbott, and saying, 'Well, even though we're going to get higher than that, we won't change what our objective is'. That contradiction is there for all to see. And the fact of why they couldn't lift it, because the Party room wouldn't let them. They're held back by the constraint that is there from Coalition members who are climate sceptics. And in the past, this Prime Minister will be remembered for ridiculing renewable energy, ridiculing action on climate change. And he has a record going way back on that.
 
TRIOLI: Let me just ask you a few quick questions on those particular issues. First of all, is climate change going to be the defining battle of this Federal election? Or will it be something else?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it will be one of the issues. It's never about one issue.
 
TRIOLI: Will that be a main issue?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it will be about what Australia looks like coming out of COVID. How Australia looks forward with new industries, new jobs. How we build back stronger. That will be the debate. As well as being about the problems that were there with the supply of vaccines, the failure on quarantine, the failure on women's safety and gender issues. The failure on all of those issues will be there. But inevitably, elections are also about looking forward to the future. And any government that's serious about looking forward to the future has to look at the opportunities that are there from acting on climate change. The shift to a clean energy economy will create jobs, will lower energy prices, as well as being good for our environment.
 
TRIOLI: Let's get to a few issues out of the COP. The draft COP26 communique calls for a 45 per cent in global reductions by 2030. Would Labor sign up to that target? And will you take it to the election?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we'll have our announcement on what we do in terms of medium-term after COP.
 
TRIOLI: You don't think the time is now to sort of, again, get out on the front foot?
 
ALBANESE: I'm sure, Virginia, you would like the announcement right now, on your program.
 
TRIOLI: I've got to say, I actually really don't care about whether it's on this program. I think for the matter of the discussion and it being meaningful, times are ticking.
 
ALBANESE: Well, if you are being meaningful, Virginia, what you've got to do is look at what the baseline is. Like, if you're serious about policy and you're serious about being the alternative government, not some fringe group or minor party that can say whatever it likes, if you want to be held to account for what you say, you need to make sure that it's properly thought through, that you work out what the baseline is. We still have not seen the Government's modelling.
 
TRIOLI: But we know what's being achieved largely by the states. And that clearly, we're going to beat our targets right now. Let me ask it this way then. Does 45 per cent look about right? Does that sound about right?
 
ALBANESE: Good attempt to ask the same question, effectively. But I've been consistent about this. And you just said earlier on, it's a contradiction here, Virginia, between the argument which says that you're leaving it too late, but people don't have a memory for a long period of time. The truth is that the election, unless it's called in two days' time, will be held in 2022. There'll be plenty of time for us to go through the detail of what medium-term objectives we have, and for us to have a debate about that. And I'm sure I'll be back on your program debating that detail.
 
TRIOLI: I'm sure you will. Would Labor sign Australia up to the COP26 pledges to reduce methane emissions and phase out the use of coal?
 
ALBANESE: Look, we wouldn't sign up to that pledge. And we said that. That wasn't an objective in terms of the lead-up to COP and the detail. From opposition, of course, you don't have access to the same departmental advice, etc, that the Government has. We don't have that.
 
TRIOLI: Is it more a philosophical one, though, about how you get there and whether fossil fuels play a medium- to long-term role in Australia or not?
 
ALBANESE: Of course, there is an issue of less use of fossil fuels as well as addressing the issue of reducing methane.
 
TRIOLI: But it's the phase out coal that's a problem for Labor, isn't it?
 
ALBANESE: Well, quite frankly, Virginia, there hasn't been a new coal-fired power station built in Australia under this Government or under the previous Government. And there won't be. In spite of that, we have the current Government saying, not just saying, funding the proponents of a coal-fired power station in North Queensland to the tune of $4 million. We will not do that.
 
TRIOLI: Indeed. But my question is to you and the Party about what is currently being used and phasing it out.
 
ALBANESE: Well, what is happening, Virginia, is that coal-fired power plants are being shut when they reach the end of their life. And that's happening with Liddell. Josh Frydenberg and this Government used to stand up and say, 'What are you doing about Liddell? We need to extend the life of it'. They stopped arguing that because reality hit. And the reality is that when coal-fired power stations reach the end of their life, they're being replaced. And taking their place, of course, is renewables.
 
TRIOLI: Indeed. There's no new or smart money for that into the future. But it's more about what we have working now. The thing is, that figure of 45 per cent global reductions by 2030 that I spoke about, that's what experts say that we need to achieve by 2030. So, do you believe keeping emissions from rising and keeping temperatures from rising above 1.5 degrees is still possible if you don't back that target? Can you make that the goal if that's not the target that's backed?
 
ALBANESE: Well, certainly 1.5 degrees is what we should be aiming for. We should be aiming to limit global warming as much as possible.
 
TRIOLI: You can still talk about the continual use of coal in some form and still say that you can keep warming to 1.5 degrees?
 
ALBANESE: Yes, you can. Because when you talk about net, as well, you're not talking about zero, you're talking about plus and minuses.
 
TRIOLI: You need to have some pretty hefty minuses.
 
ALBANESE: Well, you need to have a transition. And you need to make sure that as you transition and use more renewable energy with battery storage, and you reduce your emissions over a period of time, you do so while protecting your economic base, while protecting jobs. And you can do that. We are seeing that happening in our economy. And we're seeing it happening in spite of the Government. Not because of Government action, in spite of the Government.
 
TRIOLI: So, is that what Scott Morrison means by 'Can-do capitalism' then?
 
ALBANESE: Who knows what that means.
 
TRIOLI: Is that what it means when you say that it's happening in spite of the Government?
 
ALBANESE: Well, there are changes happening in spite of the Government. This is a Government that tried to abolish the renewable energy target, tried to abolish the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, tried to abolish ARENA, opposes action across a whole range of areas. But what has occurred is that because markets are moving, for example, on clean energy, there's nothing to outlaw a new coal-fired power station except reality, the reality of the market.
 
TRIOLI: Well, that is can-do capitalism, he must be right.
 
ALBANESE: Well, borrowing Campbell Newman's policy slogan is an interesting strategy for Scott Morrison. And I welcome him adopting more of Campbell Newman's policies and strategies. Because at least they were a bit more honest about the slash and burn approach that he had to public services.
 
TRIOLI: Anthony Albanese is with you, the Federal Leader of the Opposition. What should Australia's response be, Anthony Albanese, when other countries slap a tariff on our fossil fuel exports? And many experts say that's inevitable. What should our response be?
 
ALBANESE: Well, our response should be to take action to make sure that doesn't occur.
 
TRIOLI: Rather than dealing with the fossil fuel exports?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we should be taking action in terms of our own position and our own standing. And the problem that Australia has, we went to Glasgow as one of the few countries, along with Brazil, Mexico, and Saudi Arabia, in the industrialised world, which did not increase our ambition that we established in 20015. And that's contrary to the Paris Accords. And that's why it's likely that the communique that will come out from Glasgow will say, and this will be something that feeds into our policy approach, will say that countries that did not lift its ambition at this COP need to in 2022. And that will put the current Government as well as, of course, Labor, but we're comfortable with that, in a position of having to say what we will take to the COP, as whoever is the government, in 2022.
 
TRIOLI: Let me just read you some listener responses coming in here. These are the ones coming in on text. 'Sorry, Albo, not buying it. You and the Coalition have no discernible points of difference. It'll be a vote for independents for us and many others, I sense. What does Albo stand for? Where are the ideas?' Bill in Somers writes that. 'Stop hedging your bets and actually say something'. Trisha from Moonee Ponds is waiting on the line. Trisha, I won't take your call, but says she's a Labor voter, but disgusted Labor hasn't used its years in opposition to come up with a good climate policy. That's where we started this conversation that you've had so much time.
 
ALBANESE: Well, I'll give you the big tip, Virginia. In 2006, I was Labor's climate change spokesperson. I came up with the policy of ratifying Kyoto. We had a green car plan, we had plans for energy efficiency. We set the renewable energy target of 20 per cent by 2020.
 
TRIOLI: So, why don't they remember that?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I am giving them a reminder. And Labor governments take action. That's what we did. We did it on the basis of a policy that I was the author of, the Climate Change Blueprint. And I will be a serious leader on climate change. We will take it seriously. We will go to an international conference wanting to partner and work with people like Joe Biden. I see it as a national security issue, as well as an environmental issue, as well as an economic opportunity. And we will do that.
 
TRIOLI: Let me get to some other questions as well. But just quickly, I am interested in your reflection on this. What's your strategy to counter and deal with an opponent, the Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, who has a very clever and cunning way of pushing back against issues and things that he said and things that he has done in the past when there might be even video evidence of him saying something to the contrary, he pushes back hard against that and simply denies, what's your strategy going to be to counter that?
 
ALBANESE: Call it out. And that should be your strategy, as well, as a serious journalist. To call it out.
 
TRIOLI: If Scott Morrison was sitting here, it would be that kind of interview. Unfortunately, we don't get him here. But you're in the seat right now, Anthony Albanese, so it is your question to answer.
 
ALBANESE: When he says, for example, that, 'I didn't say that about renewable energy', just like he didn't call Sam Dastyari 'Shanghai Sam', like he didn't say a whole range of issues with regard to women's safety, he just denies. And our job is to call it out, call it for what it is. And Scott Morrison has a problem with the truth. And the problem when you engage in that 24-hour mindset where you just always look forward and don't worry about what you said yesterday, is that it does damage to your credibility. And that's why as much as it's frustrating, Virginia, and I accept that for some people that I am not here saying, 'In 2030, we will do this before we've made the announcement', one of the things I've been very clear about, as Leader of the Labor Party, is that when I say something, it's fully thought through, it's gone through our processes, and we mean it and we will implement it.
 
TRIOLI: Let me ask you some questions on China. Did Paul Keating help or hinder the Labor cause with his points on China this week? Because the Prime Minister, I think, pretty much ended up calling you an appeaser on China this week.
 
ALBANESE: Well, again, more nonsense from Scott Morrison. Prepared to say anything.
 
TRIOLI: What did you think of Paul Keating's views?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I disagree with Paul Keating. I have respect for Paul. I think he's always worth listening to. But I think that China, under Xi, has changed its positioning. It's changed the way that it relates to other nations in our region and to Australia.
 
TRIOLI: And therefore, our response needs to change?
 
ALBANESE: And therefore, our response does need to change. And we need to always be prepared to stand up for Australian values. And the document that came from the Chinese Embassy asking for a range of changes in Australia's posture and our positioning is something that we should never compromise on.
 
TRIOLI: Should the police investigation into the red shirts misuse, the scandal of the misuse of public funds, be reopened? And should Daniel Andrews be questioned by police, in your view?
 
ALBANESE: I don't follow all of the Victorian state issues, I've got to say.
 
TRIOLI: This is a pretty big one not to follow as the Federal Leader of the Labor Party.
 
ALBANESE: Not a big issue in Sydney, I've got to tell you. My understanding is that issue was looked at and finalised.
 
TRIOLI: Okay. Your candidate in Higgins, Dr Michelle Ananda-Rajah is an outspoken critic of the AstraZeneca vaccine. And her advice was for people to wait until September to get Pfizer. Do you support her views on that? And do her views reflect the views of the Labor Party more generally?
 
ALBANESE: Well, that's not right, Virginia. What happened, let's be very clear about what happened with AstraZeneca.
 
TRIOLI: No, no, this is about her specific views, which I'm very familiar with as well.
 
ALBANESE: I understand that the Liberal Party is desperately worried about the electorate of Higgins, which is why the Member for Higgins appears at a press conference with the Prime Minister in Gellibrand, nowhere near her seat. But the truth is that the issue with AstraZeneca arose because of the TGA making a determination and the Prime Minister, it was the Prime Minister who made a decision to hold a late-night press conference.
 
TRIOLI: You're pivoting my question. We're a long way away from what I'm asking you about, your candidate, and her outspoken views on this.
 
ALBANESE: The Prime Minister made statements at that time which were consistent with what Dr Ananda-Rajah said at that time. She's made it very clear. Her views are very clear that people should get vaccinated with whatever vaccine is available. They are statements that she has made, that she stands by. And what we've had is a pile-on, that says something about the state of the Liberal Party, to a candidate, not a sitting member, attempting to distort what her views were, which were very consistent with what Scott Morrison was saying at the time, that led, of course, to considerable hesitancy. We weren't critical of him for saying that, similar to comments that Greg Hunt made as well, in terms of the Health Minister.
 
TRIOLI: I just wanted to know what you thought the solution would be, and there needs to be a short-term solution here, to the crippling labour shortage that's being experienced here in Victoria, and I imagine around the country as well. Restaurants and cafes that now finally can open up are having to close down on certain days because they can't get staff. What's the short-term solution?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it's a real problem. And short-term, we need to work with businesses. We need to, of course, I would hope, open up when possible to ensure that those short-term skills shortages can be dealt with.
 
TRIOLI: Should there be a particular focus on bringing back visa workers specifically for an industry?
 
ALBANESE: Well, there's a range of industries that have really struggled, including the restaurant and hospitality sector, but also the tourism sector, but also some other areas as well. I was at a finance industry function this week. They're struggling as well. What it really identifies is the need. Another one of our policies is Jobs and Skills Australia to identify, in a strategic way, what the skills are that will be needed in Australia in two or five years’ time, to make sure that we're training Australians for those jobs.
 
TRIOLI: It's good to have you on board, Anthony Albanese. I know you'll be out and about, of course, in the months. Are you still sticking by Match 5 as the election date?
 
ALBANESE: Well, I think that the problem for the Prime Minister, I shouldn't give him this tip here, is that if it goes beyond March 5, if he schedules a budget bring forward, which he will have to do when Parliament sits during the next sitting fortnight, he'll be telling us what the date is. So, if he doesn't bring the budget forward, the election is March 5. If he does, the election is in May. He's giving up the advantage that a Prime Minister has of calling the date of an election. We've seen that before. It can be problematic. But I welcome him giving up that advantage.
 
TRIOLI: Good to talk to you. Thanks for being here.
 
ALBANESE: Thanks, Virginia,
 
TRIOLI: Anthony Albanese, the Federal Leader of the Labor Party.
 
ENDS