SUBJECTS: A national integrity commission; action on climate change; the Upper Hunter NSW by-election; challenges facing the arts and live music industries; aged care; casualisation of the workforce; support for universities; JobKeeper; COVID-19 vaccination rollout; Australians stranded overseas; what Labor offers West Australians; the next federal election.
 
GEOFF HUTCHISON, HOST: ABC Radio Perth here with Geoff. This is Drive and it's seven minutes after five o'clock. Prime Minister Scott Morrison flies into Perth tonight. His first visit here since October 2019. He'll be here for the rest of the week, I think. The man who wants to be Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has been a far more regular visitor in recent times, perhaps because he has a harder hill to climb. Labor might be the flavour of the month on a state level but historically it's been far harder to win federal seats here, the seats that might bring with it government. Anthony Albanese, good afternoon to you.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good afternoon. Good to be with you.

HUTCHISON: We'll get to my unremarkable questions shortly, but Joel wants to know, to move you from “definitely better than the current lot” to “this is the guy I can really get behind”, Joel would like to see a big toothy federal ICAC and some big vision and action towards a diverse decarbonised economy. Can you provide that?

ALBANESE: We certainly will provide a national integrity commission with real teeth with the capacity to undertake independent investigations, not just act according to what the Attorney-General of the day thinks. And one that has real powers. We’ll examine any legislation that comes forward to make sure it can restore faith in our political system. And with regard to climate change and the challenges here, I see it very much as an opportunity as well. We can be a renewable energy superpower for the world. And I think that action on climate change will create jobs, whilst reducing emissions, whilst reducing power process.

HUTCHISON: Let me add my own question there. You want Labor to be a party in government of renewables and today, in the Upper Hunter, Labor pre-selected a coal miner for the state seat there, Jeff Drayton has vowed to work bloody hard to stop people criticising coal miners. How do you respectfully support a traditional base while –

ALBANESE: I respect workers, Geoff. I respect workers. And I find it, quite frankly, astonishing that people would not draw a distinction between people who work for a living, do a tough job to put food on the table for their families, and the owners of, you know, big, multinational companies. I've found, quite frankly, some of the comments that I've seen on social media about Jeff Drayton, who I know is a decent, hard-working person who has not only worked as a coal miner, has also worked in the local wineries, of course the Hunter Valley is famous for that as well. And, you know, people should be respected and not seen as the enemy because of the job that they do. And I think Jeff Drayton will do a good job if he’s elected to Parliament.
 
HUTCHISON: What about the challenge that your party faces though as it seeks to embrace a very different energy future to that which call underpinned for such a long time. Now, I know there's talk of transition, and we have Collie here in Western Australia too, talk of transition away from the old and into the new. Can you do both? Can you walk that line? Because obviously the other side of the political fence is saying, we still believe in coal. And people will in those seats will look at that and say, “Well, okay, we'll vote for you then”.

ALBANESE: Well, one way that you do it, Jeff, is not by denigrating working people for earning a living, regardless of what the task is. And I hear in Perth, I’ve been down at Kwinana, for example, the nickel refinery there. We produce everything in this country that goes into a battery. That nickel refinery in Kwinana produces nickel that goes in about one in four of every battery around the world in terms of cars. It makes this major contribution. Why aren’t we making batteries here? Why aren't we value adding, creating jobs in manufacturing here? We could do that. And that's a part of the future.

HUTCHISON: How could you do that in a way that your political rivals would not? Because that observation you make, perfectly reasonable, is one that Scott Morrison could make if he were sitting opposite me. Because he probably believes the same thing.

ALBANESE: But he doesn't. He doesn't. This is a guy who has been in office for eight years. And during the time in which Labor was in office, emissions were reduced by around about 15 per cent. There was only a one per cent reduction before the recession, of course, resulted in a further reduction due to the reduction in economic activity. But the truth is that this Government doesn't have an energy policy and doesn't have a climate policy, won't adopt net zero emissions by 2050, and has a very different view about these issues than Labor does. I spoke to the coal miners’ union conference up in the Hunter Valley, their national conference. I said there to them, there will not be a new coal-fired power station built in Australia because it doesn't stack up. The markets have spoken. The cheapest form of new energy is renewables. They understand that. I had that conversation with them. I don't give a different message. And here, of course, on radio, it’s a public message. I give the same consistent message.

HUTCHISON: Anthony Albanese, Leader of the State Opposition is my guest. Question you'd like me to put to him, please do –

ALBANESE: Federal. I don’t want to be part of that state opposition. I’ve got more than two in my show.

HUTCHISON: You have. Now, for Albo, what challenges does he see for the arts and especially the world of live music? What's he doing for the sector that is still hurting? When we talk about sectors that have battled and really struggled during COVID times, the live music business is one of those. How would you assist?

ALBANESE: Look, they sure have. And I think there needs to be direct assistance to the sector, we need to look at ways in which we can give them economic support as well as recognise, for example, that the cancellation of Bluesfest, which is, of course, an east coast festival, but people come from all around the country to it, has had a devastating impact on the artists and on the potential for Peter Noble, who runs Bluesfest, to be able to continue. And, at the moment, there's a lack of support. That was called off on very short notice indeed. And I just think that, at a time when we do have major sporting events going ahead, we have major other activity, it seems that music is seen as being expendable. It's an important part of our culture and one that I support.

HUTCHISON: Joy wants to know whether Labor will provide more funding for aged care and sort out the staffing issues in residential facilities. How would you do it?

ALBANESE: Yes, we will. And the starting point has to be to recognise that staffing issues, whether they be nurses, or whether they be carers and other staff, simply haven't been paid enough, and there haven't been enough of them. So the Government has to respond to the Aged Care Royal Commission in the Budget. The interim report, of course, said it all in one word with its title, “Neglect”. And we need a very serious response that has to be comprehensive. And part of that has to be increased support for the people who provide that care.

HUTCHISON: And that is ensuring the people who work in aged care are paid fairly for what they do?

ALBANESE: Absolutely. One of the things that we've announced in terms of our industrial relations policy, is the capacity of the Fair Work Commission to take into account feminised sections of the workforce, like they did with the social and community services award in 2012 under Julia Gillard. That was changed under this Government. And so that there are a whole lot of sections of the workforce that are underpaid. They tend to be people who, or sections of the workforce that are dominated by women. And part of receiving and closing the gap in terms of gender pay equity, which is currently 13.4 per cent, needs to be allowing the Fair Work Commission to take into account those historical anomalies.

HUTCHISON: Let's talk about labour laws too. And Peter, thank you for calling in to ask this question. If Labor becomes the next government, what will you do to stop the casualisation of the workforce? Some argue it provides flexibility. Others say provides no certainty from paycheck to paycheck.

ALBANESE: Look, for some people casual work can be very good. I did casual work while I was going through university. But it shouldn't be used as an excuse to undermine wages and conditions. So the first thing that we would do is properly define casual work in the industrial relations legislation. We would ensure that what you can't have is people working, being defined as a casual, just in order to get around paying them decently and making sure that they get things like annual leave, sick leave and superannuation. And we saw the consequences of that during the pandemic whereby so many people had to work those multiple jobs and, when they got sick, they faced a choice of not having any income or going to work sick and that helped to spread some of the coronavirus. There are examples where that occurred.

HUTCHISON: On Drive this afternoon. You're listening to the Federal Labor Leader and Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese. Your questions - 0437 922 720. Send them in. We've got plenty of them too and I'm going to keep going with them. Scott wants to know what is federal Labor's position on university fees? After the hikes to humanities course prices and what would Albo do to help university staff who are struggling without JobKeeper and without a return of international students? That sector has so many issues to be confronted. What would you do?

ALBANESE: It sure does. Well, the first thing is was that we were critical that were excluded from JobKeeper. We have circumstances whereby a range of businesses, and I won't name them on the ABC, but we know who they were, received tens of millions of dollars even though their profits were increased.

HUTCHISON: Have you ever spoken to Gerry Harvey about this?

ALBANESE: No, I don't have Mr Harvey's number, I've got to say. But I certainly have made it clear my view, as have other people in the Labor Party, about this. It's a matter of fairness. If we weren't paying money to businesses that didn't need JobKeeper, they actually saw their profits increase, then we could have paid money, without any increased expenditure, to universities, to the arts sector, to a whole range of sectors that just missed out. So that's the first thing that should have happened. Secondly, we need to get the vaccination right and deal with the health crisis so that we can open up the economy. And part of that is paying, part of the group that's paying a real penalty, is of course our university sector, who can't get Australians back from overseas but also can't get international students here.

HUTCHISON: Let me ask you then. And let's be hypothetical for now. Congratulations, you've just become the Australian Prime Minister. How will you manage the vaccine rollout from this point, with news that AstraZeneca is not what the Government hoped it would be and there has been some shuffling and changing of targets and attitudes? We just spoke to an expert from Sydney who said, well, you know, we also do have to acknowledge here, that circumstances. This is like, you know, this is a travelling through sand. Things are changing all the time. What would you be doing?

ALBANESE: Well, we would have taken the advice and done what we said should happen last year, which is to have five or six agreements in place. Other countries did it from March last year. Scott Morrison said we were at the front of the queue. We were behind. We signed our first deals and started to negotiate around September last year. So the rest of the world got a jump on us. They were complacent. They said then that four million Australians would be vaccinated by March. And we know that we've just passed the million mark, and we're in mid-April. And we know that now they've given up on targets at all, which is just appalling. That will have a devastating impact on businesses, it will have devastating impact on our university sector, to not know when we are going to be able to open up. And there's no reason whatsoever why the Government shouldn't have had in place last year deals over Moderna, for example. Dr Norman Swan plays a bit of a role here on the ABC. He has indicated that Moderna is a particularly good pharmaceutical because it is able to adapt to the different strains which are appearing with the COVID virus. And the Moderna, for example, in the UK, when it cut out AstraZeneca from certain segments of the population, they're just able to supplement that with Moderna, which is of course being rolled out substantially in Europe and North America.

HUTCHISON: I said it was hypothetical that you're the Australian Prime Minister. And people listening will say, fair enough, that these are now, we can now make certain observations about these policies. They are to some extent hindsight policies. I know you said deals should have been signed -

ALBANESE: No we said I said more deals at the time. At the time we said that too. Which is important.

HUTCHISON: If you were to inherit this situation now. What would you do?

ALBANESE: I’d be out there doing more deals, including for Moderna, including looking at Johnson & Johnson. I know there have been some issues raised about that. But looking at more deals, making sure that we actually had targets that were going to be delivered. Scott Morrison said he was under-promising and over-delivering when he consistently said, every couple of days, what was happening. And the other thing I wouldn't do, Geoff, is hold a press conference after seven o'clock at night, which the Prime Minister did last Thursday, to change the advice. That doesn't build confidence in the rollout of the vaccine. I also would be making sure that there's transparency and daily announcements about the number of people who've been vaccinated with Pfizer, with AstraZeneca, about what the figures are, so that people could see what was happening.

HUTCHISON: So you’d promise greater transparency?

ALBANESE: Absolutely critical. And I wouldn't do what the Prime Minister did, remarkably, yesterday I think it was, where he made a health announcement on Facebook having said earlier on, just a couple of months ago, don't listen to Facebook, don't get your advice from Facebook when it comes to health care.

HUTCHISON: Okay, so let's look at a situation where not everyone's going to be vaccinated by the end of the year, it won’t be October, and there will be some challenges, and borders will probably stay up, and if there is community spread, we'll see more lockdowns continuing. What of those 36,000 Australians who still can't get home because of the situation with the caps? I only use this as an example. I have a son in Turkey and when I spoke to him last night, he said, I don't think I've got any chance of coming home this year. And I only use that as an example. Sure. What is the prospect of getting those people home comparatively soon?

ALBANESE: Well, they should be got home. They should have been home by now. The PM promised they'd be home by Christmas. You have state governments crying out for proper quarantine facilities to be permitted by the Commonwealth. Let's be very clear. The Commonwealth owns our airports, runs immigration, runs customs and, under our constitution, runs quarantine. The Federal Government has handed over all responsibility for everything to the states, except for the vaccine rollout that they've now bungled. The Prime Minister has to accept responsibility for this. Australian citizens have a right to return home. And the Federal Government should put in place measures. I mean, you have the facility at Howard Springs outside of Darwin, that I have visited, that, in the middle of last year, the Northern Territory government of Chief Minister Gunner was saying that more space would be available there, was saying they were quite happy to have people, it's a contribution to the NT economy. And yet it is only recently that it has increased in size. And that's a direct decision of the Commonwealth Government to not take that up. Had it been taken up early, your son hopefully would have been home and would have been able to have Christmas dinner with you here in Perth.

HUTCHISON: Anthony Albanese is the Leader of the Federal Opposition and the Labor Leader. ABC Radio Perth. This is Drive. You will hear quite recently. You are clearly working hard to win support for West Australians who, it must be said, have not in recent years shown much support for Federal Labor. What do you think they most want for you? And what can you offer them? Because never has there been a time in my memory where the public has been so willing to tune out from a political opinion?

ALBANESE: Well, the first thing I offer them is the opportunity to have a leader who will listen to them. This is the eighth visit I've made since the last time Scott Morrison was here. And I think that West Australians know that the Liberal Party did have very senior people in in the Government, Mathias Cormann, Julie Bishop. They've gone. And I offer a Labor Government that will work with McGowan's government to create jobs and economic activity here. Because I think if you don't get the economy right, you don't get other things right as well. That also offers opportunity through the increase in child care support that we're offering, support for education, support for the arts, support for a health sector with Medicare at its core, dealing with the challenges which are there that have been identified during the pandemic so that we build back better and stronger, we don't just try to go back to what was there before, we’ve announced the National Reconstruction Fund to build manufacturing here in Australia, and one that also takes actions on climate change in the interests of this but future generations as well. I offer a government that would be considered, that would engage. And that would, as I have done for a long period of time over the years, I've travelled to Western Australia 10 times a year on average for the last decade. I was responsible as a minister for projects like Gateway WA and Perth City Link, the sinking of the rail line and federal support for that, the Swan Valley Bypass, Gateway WA, the projects in in regional areas like the Great Northern Highway upgrades and projects around Esperance and Bunbury. The fact is that I think that this is a Government that after eight long years, looks like a tired government that's run out of ideas. I will have an experienced team. People like Penny Wong and Chris Bowen and Richard Marles and Tanya Plibersek and many others who've served in government and that are ready for government again.

HUTCHISON: Mark McGowan is unashamedly of the political centre. You know, that caution has served him very well in challenging times. Is that where election victory lies these days, in bringing as many people to the middle as you possibly can and not upsetting too many. And if you upset them, you consider them out on the fringes of both sides, so it doesn't matter as much?

ALBANESE: No, well, Mark McGowan also has vision. Have a look at what he's done with METRONET here, transforming the public transport system here in Perth. Have a look at the other work that he’s done in terms of regional economic development and what he's committed to here, the increased investment in schools and hospitals here, support for regional economic development. And I had a chat with him on Sunday night –

HUTCHISON: But didn’t he go to the National Conference, or at least appear at the National Conference, and say the centre is where the future lies? And that you can’t be a prisoner of left or right? Or, in your case, left?

ALBANESE: Well, we always need to avoid extremes of either persuasion. I think that one of the things that people are responding against his people yelling at each other. And I unashamedly, look, I got some criticism last year for, why aren’t you yelling more while the pandemic was on? Why aren't you being critical of everything? Why are you going along to the Federal Parliament and voting for the stimulus packages. And I said then that we wouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, that we would continue to be constructive, as we were, promoting wage subsidies through JobKeeper, arguing that JobSeeker should be increased, arguing for increased mental health support, arguing that the vaccines needed to be secured. We put forward all those constructive arguments last year. Compare that with the way that the Coalition responded during the global financial crisis, where they voted against the stimulus packages, they voted against infrastructure investment, they criticised us over debt. They've got debt of a trillion dollars and the government that said we'd be back in black has produced the largest deficits in Australian political history.

HUTCHISON: It's really interesting, though. And you know, and I know, and we have to finish up, but governments will be judged on certain things. And McGowan government was judged, I think, almost entirely on its response to COVID-19. And there was emphatic support. On some level, the Federal Government will be judged very positively on the way it stimulated to keep the economy going during difficult times. It's facing another challenge now. And it will be interesting to see how people assess that over the course of the coming months. Just finally, do you think there's an election this year? Or are we waiting till next year?

ALBANESE: Well, I think the Government has problems with the vaccine rollout. They have problems with their attitude towards women and the gender issues that have dominated politics in recent months. They still don't have a plan for the economy. They don't have a plan for climate change and we have President Biden convening a summit in coming weeks about increased climate change action. I don't think they're anywhere near ready to call an election. But if they do, it’s because they think things will get worse. That's why you call an early election. Because you think there's an advantage in it for you. The election’s due next year. I'm ready for whenever it's called.

HUTCHISON: Anthony Albanese, thank you for coming in.

ALBANESE: Thanks very much, Geoff.
 
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