SUBJECTS: AUKUS alliance; nuclear-powered submarine deal; Melbourne protests; COVID restrictions across Australia; need for a public information campaign around COVID; mandating of vaccinations; vaccine rollout; need for purpose-built quarantine facilities; Aussies stranded overseas; supermarket shopping.

JOSH SZEPS, HOST: There's the Prime Minister speaking a few moments ago in New York City. Back home, the former Labor Prime Minister, Paul Keating, has issued a strongly worded statement decrying the submarine deal. And along the way, taking aim at the Shadow Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, and the Leader of the Opposition, Anthony Albanese. With that in mind, joining us on ABC Sydney Breakfast is the Opposition Leader, Anthony Albanese. Thanks for being here. 

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning, Josh.

SZEPS: It takes a monster level of incompetence, Paul Keating writes, to forfeit military control of one’s own state, but that’s what Scott Morrison and his Government have managed to do. Those are Paul Keating’s words. Is that what Scott Morrison has done? Forfeit military control of Australia? 

ALBANESE: Well, no. I don't, with respect, agree with the former Prime Minister. I seek Paul Keating's counsel regularly. And he's always worth listening to. But the fact is that we've had an alliance with the United States since 1951. We just celebrated 70 years. And that was an alliance that was indeed forged under John Curtin, the Labor Prime Minister during World War Two. We have three pillars of our foreign policy under Labor. One is the alliance with the United States. The second is regional engagement. And the third is support for multilateral engagement, including through the UN, including bringing Australia back into the global effort on climate change. And I think that the submarine arrangement is based upon the best advice. Labor has always, including when Paul was Prime Minister, put our national security interests front and centre. And a Government that I lead will do that, with a strong Foreign Minister in Penny Wong and a strong Defence Minister in Brendan O'Connor.

SZEPS: So, you'd have done it, you'd have gone for nuclear-powered submarines?

ALBANESE: Well, the advice that we received from the Chief of the Defence Force, from everyone in the Defence community that I've engaged with, is that because our needs are different from when Collins class was forged, again, as a result of Labor, it is only Labor that has done the two big defence white papers under Kim Beazley, the second under Stephen Smith and Kevin Rudd. And what the advice is, essentially, is that you need going forward to be able to travel further, you need to be able to have less detection, stealth capacity, and that the nuclear-powered subs will provide the ability to do that.

SZEPS: So, this is a massive strategic shift for Australia determining to throw its lot in with the US and the UK in going nuclear on the submarine fleet. But what you're saying is that this would be the same strategic shift if Labor was in power than if the Coalition was in power?

ALBANESE: We would have received the same advice.

SZEPS: But strategic policy is determined by from the top, not just from military advice.

ALBANESE: Correct. But when you receive advice that says, essentially, that your traditional conventional submarines, because they have to snorkel, that is to come up for air, that is because they're slower than the nuclear subs. If you look at what is happening in the region, there is a need to adjust our defence capacity for that.

SZEPS: Mr Albanese, it sounds like you're falling back on a technocratic answer to what is actually a sort of philosophical question.

ALBANESE: Well, the strategic question is, how do we best defend Australia?

SZEPS: And the criticism Paul Keating is making this morning is that underlying all of this is an assumption that China is a threat. And he says that this is a threat that we're sort of conjuring into existence through our own behaviour, that China does not level threats at Australia and it does not invade neighbouring countries. And he writes, and I quote, 'The word ‘threat’ explicitly connotes military aggression or invasion, a threat China has never made against Australia or even implied making'. People who agree with Keating's outlook about Australia's strategic future, what you're saying is they don't have a home in the Labor Party or the Coalition?

ALBANESE: No, that's not right at all. There's nuance when it comes to foreign policy. And certainly, one of the things that Labor has been critical of, we've put conditions upon the shift. The three conditions that I outlined last Thursday about consistency with the non-proliferation treaty, about no civil nuclear capacity and no nuclear weapons. We've also been critical of the cost of the deal with France being walked away from, the timing and the lack of diplomacy that we're seeing played out in that relationship, that's an important relationship as well. So, we've continued to forge our own path, which we will do in the future as well, work consistently. Anyone who watches Penny Wong in Senate Estimates grill the Foreign Minister and the Defence Minister and the appropriate bureaucrats will know the idea that Penny Wong is compliant with the Government is just not right.

SZEPS: Let's talk about Melbourne, Anthony Albanese, and the incredible scenes that we saw there yesterday in the protests from the construction industry and whatever other elements may have infiltrated it. Did the Andrews Government do the right thing in banning construction for two weeks because of the first one of the protests?

ALBANESE: Well, the Andrews Government have said that they didn't take action as a result of the protests. What they've said is that they took action because there weren't appropriate safety mechanisms being played out in practice on building sites. 

SZEPS: Well, they said the protests were one component.

ALBANESE: They were a component. But we saw similar things here in Sydney, of course, as well, very recently, with the Berejiklian Government. So, there's nothing new with state governments taking action in order to ensure that safety was prioritised. We know here in Sydney, we're in lockdown. Melbourne is in lockdown. We've been in lockdown for longer on this occasion than Melbourne. And we know that if you allow this virus to just let rip, then you end up having longer lockdowns, you end up having more extreme, I guess, shutdowns that are necessary. And I think that yesterday, the important thing I want to say about yesterday is that it was entirely inappropriate. I condemn the actions of those people, particularly the outside groups who've come in, the anti-vaxxers and far-right groups who have promoted these protests online. They've engaged in violence against emergency service workers, including, of course, our police. It was just extraordinary behaviour against innocent people going about their business. And my thoughts aren't so much with them, I note also, the nurses coming out and saying, 'Hey, we're the ones who have to deal on the frontline with the health consequences of this outbreak, for goodness sake, behave’.

SZEPS: Anthony Albanese, one of the reasons why the people in the construction industry say that they felt the need to go extreme was because they were punished, essentially. They perceived themselves as having been punished for having exercised their right to protest government overreach. And so, then the crackdown, the two-week crackdown on the ban on construction, as a result of the initial protests, not entirely as a result, but partly as a result of the initial protests, has pushed things to the brink. And they say that that's what has caused the violence yesterday. How do you balance the right of workers to protest what they see as government overreach with the need for the Victorian Government to respond?

ALBANESE: These weren't legitimate protests. 

SZEPS: How do you define a legitimate protest?

ALBANESE: Well, one that's not an angry, violent mob that's attacking and assaulting police and attacking people in the media. I've been a part of a lot of demonstrations and a lot of protests over the years. This is not one that anyone could be proud of participating in. Last month, Gladys Berejiklian shut down the capacity of workers from the LGAs that were impacted in Sydney for working on building sites. They were shut down. The Master Builders Association at that time, the employer body, said that people getting vaccinated was the passport out. And I noted that they also supported the action that the Victorian Government have done. This was not a legitimate way to protest. I understand people's frustration. There are many ways in which you can peacefully demonstrate and show your views. And people are entitled to express different views regarding the recovery and different views regarding vaccinations. What they're not entitled to do is to engage in the things that we saw on the streets of Melbourne.

SZEPS: Should all construction workers be required to be vaccinated then?

ALBANESE: Well, I think people should have to accept the advice of the health experts. And what we have here is the rights that the individuals say that they endure. But what about the rights of people to work safely side-by-side with people? And what has occurred in Victoria was, on the inspections that occurred, less than half were exercising the appropriate conditions that were placed on the building industry in terms of wearing masks, in terms of the capacity of people to not spread the disease.

SZEPS: Just on the question of vaccination, because obviously, I think everyone, including probably many of the protesters, would agree that there needs to be some sort of COVID rules on worksite. Their gripe is that they don't want the vaccine.

ALBANESE: They weren't being implemented. That was the problem. And what we need to do is - there is a lot of talk about compulsion - what we need also is to provide the support so that people can get vaccinated. It's been an issue of supply. But it's also been an issue of giving people vaccination leave, which is something that Labor has been calling for for a long period of time. We know that in the period after people get vaccinated, they might for a short period of time need to be absent from work. The fact is that should be something that's provided, as well as dealing with the supply issues, as well as providing a much better public information campaign. There's been no effective national public information campaign explaining to people why it is that getting vaccinated makes sense for their health, for the health of their families, for their health of their community.

SZEPS: Those points are all well taken and well made, Anthony Albanese. And I think that it's clear that everyone would agree that we should do the best that we can to encourage people who are sort of winnable, right? The people in the significant proportion of the population, a significant chunk of the people who haven't yet been vaccinated, are winnable over with reason. And you're right that we have to capture those people. When it comes to the fringe cases, this is what is causing the crisis in Victoria is the fringe cases of people who absolutely refuse, should construction workers be required to be vaccinated?

ALBANESE: What's causing the problem in Victoria is people from outside the industry stirring up trouble. The anti-vaxxers who have their own political motivation, many of them motivated by a fear of government that they propagate, that they're using this issue to run that agenda. And that's an agenda which isn't one that I support. And one of the things that I am very concerned about is the fact that you have some members of Federal Parliament, including Government members like George Christensen, seemingly cheering on these violent protests, which are entirely inappropriate.

SZEPS: I'll try for a third time, Anthony Albanese, should all construction workers be required to be vaccinated?

ALBANESE: They should take the advice of the health authority.

SZEPS: But that sounds a lot like your response to the submarine thing, which is to fall back on technocratic advice for a moral and philosophical question.

ALBANESE: Well, with respect here, what we should be doing during the pandemic is following the science. That's not technocratic.

SZEPS: The health advice tells you what happens if you have 50 per cent vaccinated, 80 per cent vaccinated or 95 per cent vaccinated, but they don't tell you whether or not society should be able to compel people to do something against their will. That's a policy decision.

ALBANESE: Well, you haven't been paying attention. No one can compel anyone to do what they can do. No one can do that. No one can. 

SZEPS: A company can require construction workers to be vaccinated.

ALBANESE: No one is saying that vaccinations are compulsory in this country. No one's advocating that. What is occurring, though, and will continue to, I suspect, grow, is that in order to participate in a range of activities, then people have to be vaccinated. And there's nothing new in that. In order to get on a plane to go overseas, to go to various countries in the past, you have to show that you had your typhoid, had your cholera etc shots. In order to work in aged care for a long period of time, people have had to have flu vaccines. In order to work in child care, people have had to have vaccines. There's nothing new in that. What is new is that this is applying much more broadly. And that's why there's a need for a conversation to take place that brings the community with a sensible pro-science, pro-keeping people safe position so that we can open up safely.

SZEPS: It's 7:28. We're speaking with the Federal Leader of the Opposition, Anthony Albanese, Leader of the Labor Party. Just speaking about protests, there was that vigil outside the Australian High Commission in London over the weekend protesting the fact that Aussies can't get home, people who were stranded abroad. This is largely because the arrival cap was halved in July and there are no seats on flights coming into Australia for months now. And when seats do pop up, they cost $15,000 each and you risk getting bumped to the airport and waiting months for a refund. Some commercial flights are flying into Sydney with zero passenger allocation, they're just landing empty. And the number of Aussies abroad who are registered with DFAT wanting to come home has jumped up from 38,000 at the end of July to more than 45,000 now. Do we need to raise the arrival cap urgently? 

ALBANESE: Well, what we need to do is to actually have national purpose-built quarantine. The idea that we've handed over the arrival caps to states and territories when it's the Federal Government that control customs, immigration, that control our borders, is quite frankly absurd. What we needed to do was to do what the Prime Minister said would happen last year. He said people would be able to come home by Christmas. I think it is terrible that people are stranded. We need to fix it. The way to fix it is to have purpose-built quarantine facilities run by the national Government with the support of the states and territories. This is something that I called for consistently since last year. We've been calling for this. That's the key. Get people home, get them to quarantine safely and fix this problem. This is a tragedy for people who are stranded overseas. And it's also a tragedy for people here who want to see their loved ones.

SZEPS: Anthony Albanese, lastly, we were speaking yesterday about the difficulty of finding things in supermarkets. Because when the supermarket moves things around and puts them on different aisles, you can never find where the eggs have moved to. I don't know how much shopping you do by yourself, but is this a national emergency here? Do we need to make it easier to find the sweetened condensed milk at Coles?

ALBANESE: I do all my shopping by myself, I've got to say, even though my son works at a particular store in Marrickville, one of the big supermarkets. I won't give them a free plug on the ABC. And let me tell you though, that supermarket on Illawarra Road, there's only one, it never moves anything.

SZEPS: That's good.

ALBANESE: My challenge is something different, which is having a son who works in a supermarket who says, ‘Dad, we haven't got any peanut butter', 'Dad, we haven't got any Vegemite', 'Dad, we haven't got any of this'. And I say to him, 'Mate, you work at the supermarket. People putting things through the checkout where you're on, that's what they're doing is buying it. You can do that too'. So, that is my challenge to my lovely 20-year-old son. But I suspect I'm not the only parent who has that problem.

SZEPS: Exactly. Anthony Albanese, it's good to talk to you. Thanks for joining us.

ALBANESE: Good on you, Josh.

ENDS