SUBJECTS: Historical rape allegation made against a Cabinet minister; workplace culture in Parliament House; sexual assault allegations; visit to WA; WA state election.
 

OLIVER PETERSON, HOST: Albo, welcome back to WA and welcome to the Perth Live studios.
 

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good to be here. We’ve had quite a few chats over the year but nothing beats actually being in the studio.
 

PETERSON: Well it must be nice to be stepping foot back in Western Australia because I know how much you love Perth.
 

ALBANESE: Absolutely. I was on track. I made the commitment, here on your show, to come ten times a year. Because, as you and I know, it wasn’t that much of a big commitment because I’m here ten times every year, except for 2020, it just wasn’t possible. But I was on track.
 

PETERSON: You were on track.
 

ALBANESE: I was here three times before the end of February.
 

PETERSON: And then we obviously have been dealing with COVID-19. Albo’s happy to take your calls 922 11 882. We need to start with the Christian Porter allegations. Police have said case closed. Why are you calling for an independent inquiry?
 

ALBANESE: Well the family of the woman at the centre of the allegations today have said that they want an inquiry, they want answers. And anyone who watched the press conference yesterday knows that this issue isn’t closed, that there remains a whole range of questions, and it will remain a cloud until it is resolved. The police have said that they can’t investigate because of the tragic death of the woman involved. But the idea that it’s just over is defied by the fact that the first question I got from you, not surprisingly, was about this issue.
 

PETERSON: But isn’t the rule of law innocent, in Australia, until proven guilty? Or is it now you’re guilty until you’re innocent?
 

ALBANESE: No, no. Of course you're innocent till proven guilty. But you can have inquiries and still have all of that apply. And I don't know the facts of the matter. Very few people do. What we do know is that at the moment, you know, Scott Morrison and Christian Porter both say that they didn't actually read the statements that were sent to them.
 

PETERSON: Have you read them?
 

ALBANESE: No, because they haven't been provided to me.
 

PETERSON: They’ve been sent to some of your colleagues, though?
 

ALBANESE: They were sent to Penny Wong and she forwarded them to the appropriate authorities.
 

PETERSON: But not to you?
 

ALBANESE: No, and that's appropriate. They asked that it be forwarded to the Prime Minister, and she did that, and also forwarded to the police.
 

PETERSON: But I think what's confusing for people, why should there be an inquiry if police have said, we've dealt with it? Because, I'm not trying to trivialise the situation. It's extremely important. But why with this particular example, for politicians as well, should there be an inquiry versus say, something that's happened with an allegation in East Perth or down in Bunbury?
 

ALBANESE: There would be, in any corporate business, any major business, if this was someone who is the CEO or in a position of authority, this wouldn't be just forgotten. There would be an inquiry.
 

PETERSON: Right, so it’s because it's his position, because he's Attorney-General.
 

ALBANESE: He’s the Attorney-General, he’s the first law officer of the land and he's a Cabinet  Minister.
 

PETERSON: Right, so then why were the allegations against the former leader, Bill Shorten, of the Labor Party, why were they dealt with differently?
 

ALBANESE: They were dealt with. That's the point.
 

PETERSON:  But not publicly, like these.
 

ALBANESE: They were dealt with. There was a police investigation. It was on the front page of the paper, Oly. There’s been this pretence that they weren't dealt with publicly…
 

PETERSON: But there’s been a police investigation here as well.
 

ALBANESE: No there hasn’t. That's the point. The police have said they can't investigate. In Bill Shorten’s case…
 

PETERSON: Well the police have also said today that they spoke to the woman five times and, before she took her own life, she asked for this to be dropped.
 

ALBANESE: In Bill Shorten’s case, there was a 10-month investigation. Bill Shorten fully cooperated with it. He waived any rights of self-incrimination. He dealt with that openly and honestly.
 

PETERSON: But not publicly. Not like this. So why is this one public?
 

ALBANESE: He actually held a press conference, Oly, at the time. And the police, of course, said that they weren't going to proceed with any action after they'd looked at all of the evidence. What happened here was that there hasn't been an investigation by the police. There hasn't been an investigation by any appropriate body.
 

PETERSON: But there has been a police investigation. They’ve interviewed her five times.
 

ALBANESE: There has not been a police investigation, Oly. They spoke to the woman. She didn't even make a formal statement to the police. That was scheduled. You have this tragic death. You have a range of people who were informed by this woman about out what she says occurred at the time. And, at the moment, you have a circumstance whereby you are having inquiries, we saw it yesterday, there was an inquiry by the media, to the Attorney-General, shown live on national TV and, in some cases, broadcast on radio. Now, that's not the way to deal with with this issue. The way to deal with it is to have an appropriate inquiry and for the Prime Minister to be able to satisfy himself and satisfy the Australian people that Christian Porter is a fit and proper person to continue in the role that he has.
 

PETERSON: Should he resign?
 

ALBANESE: I think that there needs to be a proper examination. And one of the things that I've done with this, Oly, is to be very careful, to say that this is a decision for the Prime Minister. But I just say that this isn't concluded, it will continue until there is some form of investigation or inquiry. It's not been…
 

PETERSON: He argued yesterday in his press conference as well, this is the rule of law in the country. Now, if this is an allegation, he doesn't want to resign, are we basically saying that we don't believe in the law of Australia, in our democracy, Anthony Albanese?
 

ALBANESE: No, no. We're not saying that at all. And that was a disingenuous comment. What we have here is that the Prime Minister has said he believes what Christian Porter has told him, what he has said, but he hasn't even read what the comments of the woman at the centre these allegations are, and nor has Christian Porter.
 

PETERSON: Let's go to Jeff, if you just chuck your headphones on, he's got a question about this inquiry. Good afternoon, mate. Go ahead.
 

CALLER: Thank you, thanks for the opportunity. Look, it's a tragic situation, but if it was me or you, Oly, it should be dealt with in the same way as any other person if we'd wronged somebody potentially. You've got Tom Percy. What annoys me is you’ve got Tom Percy, a QC, who admitted on your station yesterday he’s no fan of the Liberal Party, but this has nowhere to go legally. The NSW Police have interviewed the lady five times, apparently. And then she said, no, I don't want to go any further. They didn't take it up with Mr Porter. Presumably if there had been a need to, or any justification to, they probably would have. They haven’t. I just think we’re really trying to beat it up, or people are trying to beat it up. And I don't think that's appropriate. It's not fair on Mr Porter, who’s being held into question, when he says it doesn’t happen.
 

PETERSON: So what would you say to Jeff there, Albo?
 

ALBANESE: Well, people in a range of professions step aside when there are allegations made whilst there are investigations. There are standard procedures, for example, in schools and in other professions, where that occurs. And we also had in the High Court of Australia, and Dyson Heydon, investigation into allegations that was done by, at arm's length, independently, and findings made on the balance of probability there. And that occurred in the High Court. The High Court knows something about the rule of law. And they established a process because they recognised that you couldn't just leave these issues hanging and pretend that they hadn't been seen or they hadn't been heard. They have been and, therefore, it requires some form of resolution. I don't argue these issues are easy, but it requires leadership and something that has characterised now Scott Morrison's response to a range of issues, Brittany Higgins, whether it be this issue, the bushfires, a range of the COVID issues, him not taking responsibility. And responsibility starts with accountability.
 

PETERSON: So, shoe on the other foot, is this what you’d do if you were Prime Minister and this was your shadow Attorney-General?
 

ALBANESE: Well, I would not be responding the way that Scott Morrison has. I would recognise that the debate over whether there's an inquiry or not isn't an academic one. There is an inquiry at the moment, as we saw yesterday, but it's an inquiry being led by the media that isn't in a position to ascertain facts and to actually go through and interview the people involved. The people who were there at the time and people who might have information and people who were spoken to by the woman. And there's got to be a process whereby this does move forward. Because the idea that we just go back to Parliament in a couple of weeks and we walk in and everyone pretends that this hasn't happened and that these things haven't been said and the allegations haven't been made and the person who sits at the apex of our legal system, the Attorney-General is the first of law officer of the land, I just don't think it's tenable.
 

PETERSON: So should there be any inquiry then into, not just Christian Porter, but go beyond Christian Porter and allegations that might have been levelled against other politicians? So we know Bill Shorten, as we’ve just spoken about…
 

ALBANESE: That was dealt with…
 

PETERSON: But why wouldn’t everybody be investigated then, Anthony Albanese? So, it's clear that for everyone, there’s a line in the sand.
 

ALBANESE: Because that was dealt with. That was dealt with by the police and a finding made. The problem here is, Oly, there has not been an investigation.
 

PETERSON: But can you understand some people may think you're using this now as a political football?
 

ALBANESE: Well I haven't raised, you know, this isn't something that's come from the Labor Party. This has come from the family and friends of the woman involved. This is something that was being investigated by the ABC, in the lead-up to its Four Corners program last year. I frankly find it beyond belief that the details of this weren't known in terms of what was rumoured to be around. I heard about it at the time.
 

PETERSON: So Christian Porter yesterday says nobody put anything to him before the story was published on Friday.
 

ALBANESE: And a range of journalists have said that that just is not the case, that they put forward.
 

PETERSON: So Christian Porter’s lying?
 

ALBANESE: Well, it's up to him to explain the discrepancy that’s there. But a range of journalists put forward arguments about these issues. And the idea that that he was being spoken about, and it was pretty common knowledge in the lead up to the Four Corners program, that he wasn't aware of any of that is, in my view, just not a credible statement.
 

PETERSON: Stick with us. It is 4:20. Anthony Albanese, the Australian Labor leader, is my guest live in the studio. He's happy to take your calls 922 11 882.
 
 
[AD BREAK]
 
 

PETERSON: My guest, live in the studio, the Australian Labor Leader, Anthony Albanese. I want to ask you about the Defence Minister, Linda Reynolds. Do you think her position has become untenable after calling a former staffer, Brittany Higgins, a “lying cow”?
 

ALBANESE: You bet. I think her position was untenable the day I asked a question of Scott Morrison about whether she should have informed him, as he says that she didn't, about the reported sexual assault that occurred in her office just down from the Prime Minister's office. He said that she should have. Well, at that point, I thought she'd be gone that afternoon, either that or would stand up and say that's not true. She backed up the Prime Minister's statement. And therefore I can't see how it would be tenable for her to continue. And this statement is just extraordinary. I mean, Brittany Higgins, you know, a brave woman who's come forward here with such a serious allegation. And she deserves to be treated with respect. I just find it incomprehensible that Linda Reynolds is still in her position today. I don't know. What does it take to lose your job under Scott Morrison?
 

PETERSON: Well, Miss Higgins has released a statement today saying the comments are incredibly hurtful. She's also considering her legal options. Does that prove her point though that Parliament is a toxic place? Is that true, Albo?
 

ALBANESE: Look, I find overwhelmingly the people who work in Parliament House, across the political spectrum, I find them good to deal with, respectful, particularly away from the argy-bargy of Question Time. But clearly there's a cultural problem in Parliament House. And I found the revelations quite shocking. That two years ago, that someone could be the subject of a reported sexual assault and it happen in a Minister's personal office, and people in the Prime Minister's Office know, ministers know, and for two years it's not revealed. And the last sitting fortnight there was new information coming out each and every day.
 

PETERSON: On the email, Graeme says, Albo, you say Bill Shorten was cleared by police, but so has Christian Porter. He's not privy to the police information. This is a witch hunt and who would run the independent inquiry? And what would the police provide to that interview? It’s a joke.
 

ALBANESE: Well, guess what, Scott Morrison gets to appoint an inquiry, not me. I'm not the Prime Minister of the country. And in terms of Bill Shorten, there was a 10-month police investigation. There was no investigation here.
 

PETERSON: We had [inaudible] yesterday, Tom Percy QC, say there's insufficient evidence. Obviously, sadly, tragically, you can't interview the woman involved with this. She’s dead.
 

ALBANESE: Well, that's what the police found, which is why there hasn't been an investigation. That's the thing. And that's what makes it difficult here. But that's just a fact that has to be dealt with. That's why there's no parallel here between something that's been investigated properly, that everyone's cooperated with the police, the police have made a finding. Here, the police have said they can’t investigate because…
 

PETERSON: There's insufficient evidence.
 

ALBANESE: Well, because the person who's made the allegation took her own life.
 

PETERSON: You're here for two days but there’s no public engagements with yourself and Premier Mark McGowan. Why is that?
 

ALBANESE: I'm doing lots of stuff. I'm here. Where’s Scott Morrison?
 

PETERSON: But where’s Mark McGowan? Doesn’t he want to be seen with you, are you poison or something, Anthony Albanese?
 

ALBANESE: He certainly does, mate, and we'll be seen together tomorrow. And he's not in Perth today. The sitting schedule meant I wanted to get across here as soon as I could, it was my birthday on Tuesday…
 

PETERSON: Happy birthday.
 

ALBANESE: So I got across here. I'm meeting, as I did today, I’m meeting business people. I’ve just come from a meeting with Wesfarmers about what's happening with the economy here. I'll have other meetings on with Josh Wilson tonight down in Fremantle. I’ll be visiting a child care centre tomorrow. I’ll go to the ALP campaign headquarters to see all the team.
 

PETERSON: So obviously Mark McGowan’s got a lot of magic dust at the moment. He's almost at 90 per cent popularity. Are you asking him for a few secrets?
 

ALBANESE: He’s been a good mate of mine for a very long period. And he's doing a great job as WA Premier.
 

PETERSON: Can you capitalise, though, on his popularity and success in Western Australia to drive Federal Labor success in WA because, to be frank, you underperform.
 

ALBANESE: We have underperformed. That’s the truth. But one of the things that you know, Oly, is that I'm a leader who has been here regularly, has engaged, who is responsible, can point towards a record of job creation and infrastructure like Gateway WA, the Perth City Link project, Great Northern Highway, all the projects that were funded while I was the Minister and my support and engagement here in the West. And what we have is a Liberal Party, frankly, that's lost a whole range of its talent. Julie Bishop, Mathias Cormann, others potentially being lost as well. Michael Keenan went and gave Scott Morrison a character assessment as he went out the door. And the fact is that Scott Morrison chose to side with Clive Palmer against Mark McGowan and against the keeping of people safe here in WA and that was something that I think that will be very much driven home during the next federal campaign. That I'll be saying I'm on the side of West Australians. Scott Morrison is on the side of Clive Palmer and the people who wanted to sue the people of WA for a hell of a lot of money.
 

PETERSON: Do you have any plans to catch up with Ben Wyatt and try and twist his arm to run for Labor federally?
 

ALBANESE: I'm not catching up with him, but he's a great fellow. And I am catching up with a whole range of West Australia Labor people while I'm here, but also businesses and others as well. The focus is of course, at the moment, on the state campaign. And Mark McGowan’s quite right to not take anything for granted. We know that polls can be wrong. And that's why everyone wants to see, though, the work of Mark McGowan be able to be continued because I think he's a great Premier. And I think the other bloke’s just come up with some rather strange policies, I've got to say.
 

PETERSON: Well, the other bloke will be live in the studio at five o'clock this afternoon, Zak Kirkup, with just nine days to go before the state election. We appreciate you coming back to Perth and finding some time in your schedule to drop into the 6PR studios.
 

ALBANESE: Always a pleasure.
 
ENDS