KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Hello and welcome to the first leaders’ debate of the election campaign. The Sky News Daily Telegraph People's Forum. And welcome the Prime Minister and Opposition Leader. Thank you.

A room full of undecided voters. Chosen independently by Q&A Market Research. All undecided voters. And we're here at the Wenty Leagues in the beautiful town of Wentworthville in Parramatta, the seat of Parramatta. The Prime Minister will speak first. We've had a toss of the coin: PM over to you.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Well, thanks very much, Kieran. And thanks, Peter, for agreeing to this debate. And thanks to all the audience here at Wenty Leagues Club, the home of the Magpies, for joining us here today.

Look, the world has thrown a lot of challenges at Australia in the last few years, we've had the COVID pandemic, followed by the biggest inflation spike since the 1980s and the biggest energy crisis since the 1970s. But what matters is how you respond. And we've responded the Australian way. Thanks to the hard work of Australians, including the people in this room, inflation is down to 2.4%. Wages are up. They've been up five quarters in a row - real wages. Unemployment is low at 4.1%. We've created 1 million jobs. And importantly, interest rates have started to fall.

What this election is about, though, is what happens next. Whether we continue to build on those foundations with a tax cut for all 14 million Australians. Strengthening Medicare, including those bulk billing rates getting up to 90% and making sure we have urgent care clinics. Free TAFE, the 20% off student debt and making more things here in Australia through a Future Made in Australia.
Now, you can't control everything that happens. And we know in the world it's uncertain, but I'm absolutely certain of this: now is not the time to cut, now is not the time to look backwards, now is the time to look forward and seize the opportunities and Build Australia's Future. 
 
GILBERT: Prime Minister. Thank you. Mr Dutton.
 
PETER DUTTON, OPPOSITION LEADER: Thank you very much, Kieran. Thank you, Anthony, for being here tonight. And thank you very much to the audience. I think your stories tonight will reflect the realities and the stories of millions of Australians. And it has been a tough year, a tough three years, in fact, for Australians. People have seen the Government make mistakes, starting with the Voice and priorities that just haven't accorded with your own priorities.

Almost 30,000 small businesses have gone broke and behind each one of those stories there is somebody who's lost their house or lost their life savings. People have gone backwards because when you go to the supermarket now, you're now paying 30% more for groceries, paying about 32% more for your electricity. And the Prime Minister promised at one of these debates at the last election that your power bills would go down by $275. Instead, they're up by $1,300. I want to provide support to Australians from the first day that we're elected, and that is through a 25 cent a litre cut to fuel, both diesel and unleaded. It'll help families, it'll help businesses, it'll help pensioners and it will help the economy. In addition to that, we want to make sure that we can get gas for Australians so that we can fix up the energy system which is driving up the cost of everything. And if we can do that, we can get our Country Back on Track. That's a positive plan that I want to talk about. And I want to say thank you very much for being here tonight.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton. Thank you very much. We've got our first question, Michael. Thanks, Michael.
 
QUESTIONER: Thank you. I've got a question to both the Prime Minister and Mr Dutton: we came out of COVID and the economy did really well after that, and we're still going well at the moment. How are we going to cope with the Trump pandemic that we're going through right now? And what's your strategy around getting Australia on the right foot going forward?
 
GILBERT: That's a great question. Prime Minister, first to you.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, thanks very much, Michael. And indeed, Australians did show extraordinary resilience during the global pandemic, and we came through that. But it had a long tail that's still having an impact today and straight afterwards followed by inflation. Now, President Trump has made a decision that I've called an act of economic self-harm for the United States. When you impose tariffs, it's a tax on the country that is imposing it. So, Americans will pay more for the goods that they purchase from overseas. And that will have an impact here because we know that as the world's largest economy, it's expected to dampen global economic growth. So, it does present a challenge.

But last Thursday, we were prepared. Australia got the best deal of any country on the planet. 10% is 10% more than we would like, but no one got a better deal than us, in part because of the representations that we've made. But we were prepared as well. No country is better positioned to take advantage of the trade opportunities. And it's important to remember this: 80% of global trade doesn't involve the United States. So, in our region in particular, there will be opportunities for Australia that we want to seize. We've said we'll have global trade missions, following the missions that I've led to Indonesia, to India and China, looking for opportunities for businesses. We'll create a fund through our National Reconstruction Fund of $1 billion to help businesses adjust here. We'll continue to negotiate, of course, with the United States looking for a better deal for Australia because reciprocal tariffs would, of course, be zero because we don't impose tariffs on U.S. goods.
 
GILBERT: We might hear from Mr Dutton. Thanks.
 
DUTTON: Well, Michael, thank you for your question. I sat around the Cabinet table when we negotiated with Trump mark one Presidency and we negotiated an outcome for Australia which is much better than what we had today. And it meant that Australia was excluded from the first round of tariffs imposed by President Trump. I've also sat around the Cabinet table and the National Security Committee when we went through COVID, and the support that we provided to families, to employees, to employers kept our economy going through a very rough period. And I know that we can deal with whatever comes our way. I think one of the great things about living in the greatest country in the world is that whatever is thrown at us, the Prime Minister of the day should have the ability and the strength of character to be able to stand up against bullies, against those that would seek to do us harm, to keep our country safe and to make sure that we can make the right economic decisions for our country as well. And that's exactly what I would seek to do as Prime Minister.
 
GILBERT: Let's hear from Monica now. Thank you, Monica.
 
QUESTIONER: Thank you. I work for the Department of Education, and I've seen that there's quite a big difference between public versus private. And I was wondering if we're getting any sort of funding towards public education in the near future.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton, kick that one off?
 
DUTTON: Well, I think it's an incredibly important question, and it's important because parents have a choice to make, and whether that's for the public system or for the private system – we have supported both, and we support increased funding going into this election as well. And there's a position which is identical between the two parties in relation to funding for public schools and for private schools as well. I think it is important that parents are able to have that choice and that we can fund the infrastructure and that we can support teacher development and make sure that we've got an education system which is fit for purpose. We live in an incredibly competitive environment, and we need to make sure that the outcomes in our schools are meeting the standards and expectations of students and parents and teachers and educators more generally. And that requires money. It requires commitment. And thank you very much for the great work you do.
 
GILBERT: PM?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Monica, for your question. And I admire anyone who's a public-school teacher. You do incredible work.

And one of the things we've had to deal with is, the last time government changed in Australia in 2013, in the 2014 budget, $30 billion was ripped out of public schools, in that budget. $50 billion was ripped out of hospitals. And we've had to deal with that for a long time. You'd be aware, way back now, more than a decade ago, there was the Gonski reforms which were about giving, put simply, every child to get fair funding. So, that if they fall behind, they can get that assistance.

Now, we've delivered that in a deal negotiated with every single State and Territory in the country, $14.6 billion of additional dollars, so that every student, whether they're going to a public school or a private school, can get the funding that they deserve. And that includes the deal so that they get proper support. So, if a child falls behind, at the moment, NAPLAN is a bit too late. We want to do testing in Year One, so if a child falls behind, they can get that specialist, one-on-one tutoring or small group to make sure that they don't fall behind. Because if you address that really early, then every child can have the opportunity to fulfil their aspirations.
 
DUTTON: Kieran, I just want to follow up on that – if I could just very quickly. The fact is that there were no cuts. The Prime Minister goes out with this Mediscare campaign and the education scare campaign. It is not a truthful statement. Now, what the Prime Minister is saying is that the funding didn't go up by as much as he would want each year. But there was no year where funding was cut from hospitals or from education. When I was Health Minister, we increased hospital funding by 16%. Now, the Prime Minister might say it should have gone up by more. That's fine for him to say that. But to say that the funding was cut, you can go and have a look at the Budget Papers, that is not a factually correct statement. It's misleading. It's designed to scare people, and I think it's dishonest from a man who wants to be re-elected as the Prime Minister of our country.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Kieran, it is a fact. It is in the 2014 budget papers. There's line items really explicitly $50 billion savings in health, $30 billion savings in education –
 
DUTTON: But did funding go down each year, Prime Minister or not?
 
PRIME MINISTER: $30 billion from the funding that was in the Budget before the change of government occurred.
 
QUESTIONER: G'day. I'm Jason. I'm from Stanhope in the western suburbs. Selfish question. I've got a second-year uni student at home. My concern is, so with the Liberal Party's position on immigration and students, students from overseas, how will those universities pick up the shortfall? And will my son's uni fees increase?
 
DUTTON: Jason, the short answer is – Thanks, mate. Thank you. The short answer is no, because what we do as a Government is we provide that funding to universities and obviously there's a HELP scheme where students are paying for part of their own education as well.
What we've done, though, is that we've said under the Government's program, they've brought in about a million people over the last two years. Now, that's a higher number, in fact, by 70% higher than any two-year period in our country's history. The Government will bring it under the migration program, so, this Big Australia policy that Anthony never spoke anything about before last election, that will be about 2 million people over five years, a population bigger than Adelaide. So, if we ask why we've got a housing crisis and why it's difficult, we can point to that because there's massive demand for housing and Australian kids are missing out and rents are up by about 18%. I want desperately to make sure that we get an opportunity for young people to believe in and achieve again the dream of home ownership.

There are about 42 international students coming into our country for every one student accommodation unit that's been approved. And that has had a big impact. So, it doesn't impact on the cost of a domestic student going to university, but it will change the dynamic within many universities, because, for example, at the Sydney University, you've now got a much higher mix in terms of international students to domestic students, which changes the dynamic on campus. But I want to make sure that we can get Australian kids into housing as quickly as possible.
We can't do that because obviously if a million people come here over two years, they want a house for themselves and their family as well. And the Government just hasn't been building the housing.
 
GILBERT: Jason, you happy with that? And if you've got a question for the Prime Minister as well?
 
QUESTIONER: I've got a follow up question just in regards to – part of Australia, our way of life, is sharing our way of life with the rest of the world, part of our humanity is doing good. And so, us training other people from all around the world gives them an open opportunity to witness our Australianism. And so, by not allowing those students to come to Australia, it actually hurts our brand worldwide.
 
GILBERT: We've had quite a – thanks, Jason. We've had quite a few, as you know, Mr Dutton, foreign students become Ministers, Prime Ministers. It's a good soft power tool, isn't it?
 
DUTTON:  Look, I think we are not only the best country in the world, but I think we've been made better because of our migration story. When you look at the migration story to our country, particularly since the Second World War, people have come out of war-torn Europe, people have come out of Asia, all parts of the world. We're an incredibly lucky country for it. But the numbers of international students have increased by 65% over the course of the last couple of years. Now, that is a dramatic increase. So, I'm all in favour of a well-managed migration program, but I'm not in favour of what the Prime Minister has done by flooding the market. And a person is coming in every 44 seconds into our country, and we haven't got the housing to accommodate that.
We need to get the sequencing right. And it's why we're putting $5 billion into a programme to create 500,000 new homes.
 
GILBERT: Let's hear from Mr. Albanese. Thanks very much, Kieran.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Everyone here knows that after COVID finished, when the borders were up, when Australians, including Australians from the community around here in Wentworthville, couldn't actually come home because they were barred from that, you were going to get an uplift. Truth is, the population today is lower than what was anticipated in 2019 it was going to be. The migration levels fell in the last year by 31%, in one level. We introduced legislation to put a cap on student numbers, the Coalition and the Greens voted against it in the Senate so it couldn't get through. We want a reasonable cap that protects the universities because their funding levels is connected with this, that makes sure, though, that we get that balance right. And on housing, we've got a $33 billion Homes for Australia plan that has seen, in part, we have 28,000 social housing units either under construction or in planning as we speak, right today. There's been 400,000 homes or units built since we came to office. We've got a target of 1.2 million.
We do need to do more to build housing, but that is what we are doing. The former Government didn't even have a Housing Minister for some of the time that they were in office.
 
GILBERT: I know, speaking to a number of the audience before we started that cost of living is a, a big issue for a lot of you, and a few nods in the audience. Can I just get a show of hands who's, who's doing it pretty tough, who's finding it hard to get by at the moment, the way the economy is, cost of living pressures and so on? That's quite a few hands there. And, well, we know that I'm not telling you both anything there, but I guess it raises the question, PM, you did the tax cuts, why not the fuel excise as well? Why not throw everything at that issue?
 
PRIME MINISTER: The fuel excise will disappear, in a year. Like the last time it happened, the 2022 election. This is from the Scott Morrison playbook. It came in for a year. What we want is things that are permanent. So, our tax cuts will be permanent. Free TAFE will be permanent. Taking 20% of student debt will be permanent. The reducing of medicines down to $25, the same costs that they were in 2004 will be a long-term difference. And we've frozen the cost for pensioners to just $7.70 for the rest of the decade. So, we understand cost of living pressures. That's why we've introduced, as well, energy rebates. All of these measures we've done, cheaper childcare, but all of them have been opposed by the Coalition. We have put in place what we can to make a positive difference. We know that there's more to do and that's why we want to do it.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton, I'll ask you the same question, but the other way around. You announced the reduction in the fuel excise. Why not do the tax cuts as well? That's what people expect of Liberal Party leaders, don't they?
 
DUTTON: Well, Kieran, a couple of points. Firstly, I think that was a very confronting scene, if I might say, from where we're standing, to see the number of hands raised then of people who are working hard, people who have done everything they can in their own budgets to cut back on expenses and just to try and make things balanced at the end of each week or the end of each fortnight or month. And as I said in my opening remarks, I think it's reflective of the broader population in Australia at the moment, and it's certainly similar to many of the conversations we've had as we moved around the country. People in tears, people who have taken their kids out of school, people who have stopped a doctor's appointment because they can't afford to pay to go to see the doctor under this Government. Bulk billing rates have come down dramatically under this Government. So, I think we should be doing everything we can to provide support, but we need to do it in a way that is not inflationary, because with 12 interest rate rises, the worst thing that we can have is a big Labour-Green spending Government after the election, because that will be upward pressure again on interest rates, which will be a disaster for families, particularly with big mortgages.

So, our argument is that we want to provide support immediately through the 25 cent a litre reduction, and that is part of the tax that people are paying in their household budgets. Yes, there's income tax, but equally, the fuel tax is 50 cents in every litre and we're reducing that down to 25 cents a litre. We do it for 12 months and then we will reassess it after that.
The Prime Minister is baking in about $7.5 billion every year of recurrent expenditure, which is why Labor always builds up a structural spend in the Budget, which ultimately contributes to their $1.2 trillion of debt. And that's what makes it harder, because the interest bill just continues to grow. And we should be spending that money on helping families and hospitals and services otherwise in the economy.
 
GILBERT: Let's hear from our next voter. This is Hiba.
 
QUESTIONER: Hi. So, I'm from just around here from Toongabbie. I direct my question to both of you. I have many loved ones affected by the current genocide in Gaza carried out by the Israeli government. At the moment, our taxes are going towards the funding of weaponry aiding the onslaught on the innocent people of Gaza. What are you doing to stop this, Prime Minister and Opposition Leader? What will you do about this if you are elected?

GILBERT: Prime Minister, first to you.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you very much for the question. And I certainly understand that for many Australians, or particularly those with families or relatives, either in Israel or in Gaza or indeed in Lebanon. This has been a very traumatic period. My Government's approach is that every innocent life matters and we want to see a ceasefire, we want to see hostages released, we want to see aid get through to Gaza.

I must say though, there are no Australian weaponry involved in what is going on in Gaza. That is just not the case. We have made sure as well that Australia has taken, I think, a responsible position of continuing to call for not just the short-term issues in terms of ceasefire, aid to people in Gaza, the release of hostages, but also our principled stance of a two-state solution. I want to see both Israelis and Palestinians live in peace and security side by side. 
 
GILBERT: Prime Minister, thank you. Mr Dutton.
 
DUTTON: Well, like the Prime Minister, and I'm sure, like every Australian, I want to see peace in the Middle East as well. But what we saw when Hamas took hostages and took people into the tunnel network, that was an action which if had happened to Australians, there would have been an expectation of our government to react, to send in the SAS to make sure that we recovered those people as quickly as possible.

And I want to make sure that in our country, people can celebrate their heritage, can celebrate their connections to a country of origin or to a country which is important to them. But when you come to our country, it's about celebrating being Australian, always respecting heritage and culture, but also abiding by our laws. And I think what we've seen in our society over the course of the last couple of years, with fire bombings, with attacks on individuals, it's completely un-Australian, and it's not something that I think any of us would accept.
 
GILBERT: I want to move on now. Here is Ian.
 
QUESTIONER: Thank you. G'day, Anthony. My question, I'm an owner driver from Kings Langley up near Blacktown. It's about the fuel excise. I'm hoping that you can match that from Peter, because I know you've offered tax cuts and that's great, but I believe they're not for 15 months, and to be honest, Mr Prime Minister, people are hurting now. Not in 15 months’ time. So, you know the fuel is dialled into everything, not only personally – people's cars – but for me and other truck drivers, it makes the supply chain cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. It fuels less. And I'll say to Peter, too, if you've only promised it for 12 months: extend it. Extend it for three years, extend it for the whole term. And then I think Australia as a nation will be happy.
 
GILBERT: Ian, thank you. PM?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thanks very much, Ian, and thank you for what you do as an owner-driver. Truckies do it really tough. It's a tough job that you do to keep the country moving. And one of the things that happened during the COVID pandemic, of course, was that you did keep the country going, along with our people in our hospitals and retail and in aged care. It was magnificent the way that Australians got through what was a very difficult period. Look, we have to make decisions, and we were concerned that just a temporary measure, just like it happened prior to the 2022 election, it then just disappeared after a period of time.

And what Peter's proposing is something that is temporary, that will, of course, because of the nature of it as well, kick in for a period of time, increase the deficit in the short term. What we have looked to do to target cost-of-living measures, as cost-of-living measures that put downward pressure on inflation, which is why we have been successful in getting inflation down to 2.4%. There's more work to do. But that's why we produced two Budget surpluses. We've halved the deficit that was anticipated this year whilst putting in place what measures we can to provide that cost-of-living support when people need it, across the range of areas that we have done.
 
DUTTON: Ian, thank you for your question. I do think fuel and the tax that's applied to fuel is a huge impost across the economy, which is why we've taken the decision. Because a cut in the fuel excise, the fuel tax, it means a 25 cent a litre reduction, not just for families and small businesses, but also for pensioners and other people across the economy. And as you rightly point out, it takes some pressure off the supply chain. So, it means that, you know, when you have a look at the fuel bill you're paying, think about the tradie as well, who might have three or four Utes running around. And the cost each week being paid, or delivery truck drivers, farmers on, you know, delivering produce to supermarkets, et cetera. That's where the real benefit is in the economy.
 
I just make this point in terms of whether you make a decision about making it permanent. Good governments respond to the circumstances in front of them. And as I pointed out before, when we approached the COVID period, we looked at what economic things and decisions that we could make to make it easier for families and businesses to survive through that period. We didn't bake them in permanently. We provided them on an ongoing basis. We renewed them if we thought that the economy still required that and people still needed that support, which is exactly the approach that I want to take. So, it costs $6 billion a year. It's a lot of money. The Prime Minister's tax cuts cost about $17.4 billion over four years and then over $7.5 billion a year, ongoing. Now, my argument is that there are many ways in which we can provide support, including tax cuts, and we would reassess where we are as an economy, as a people, as a nation, in 12 months’ time. And if we needed to extend it, then we could do that. But I would just say that if you bake it in and you put it as a continuing cost, that continues to compound because every dollar that Anthony Albanese is spending at the moment is borrowed money and that has to be paid for. So, we just have to get the balance right.
 
GILBERT: Does it make us more vulnerable not having those buffers that we've had in previous crises? In hindsight, would you have put more money, you saved more because we've got another shock, as Michael quite rightly points out, the Trump shock. Are we more vulnerable now because of the 10 years of deficits forecast?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, one of the things that we did, Kieran, of course, was turn a $78 billion deficit we inherited. We turned that into a $22 billion surplus. And then we turned a deficit of more than $50 billion into a $15 billion surplus. We've saved $207 billion. The bottom line is better off since we came to office and that's made a big difference. And, Ian, can I say, I was talking to a truckie friend of mine the other day, and one of the things that he pointed out about Mr Dutton's plan to stop working from home was that if you put all those car, on the one hand they're saying, yeah, we'll give you some cheaper petrol, but on the other hand, they were saying that people would have to drive more. And one of the things we know about being on the M4 here or the M7 is that on the days, particularly Monday or Friday because of working from home days, those increase on those days, it's easier to get around. That's one of the reasons why we put in our industrial relations policy the right to bargain over work from home and why we support it. Peter is now saying he does or he doesn't, but we think that's an important measure as well.
 
DUTTON: Kieran, I just want to pick the PM up on a couple of those figures, because the reality is that the government today was bequeathed a set of books where we were in balance, and that's what happened when the Prime Minister was elected. Now, the Prime Minister can scoff at that, but that's the reality. Australians know that. Now, we had a situation over COVID where debt was run up, as we mentioned before, but the government has been able to achieve two surpluses off the back of Liberal Party economic management. And now in the most recent budget you've seen that debt goes to $1.2 trillion. And deficits, that is the government's running at a loss in every budget in every year forward. Now, if they were such good economic managers, why would it only be in the first two years? After a Liberal government, they've been able to achieve a surplus? And now, from now on, and I'll just make this point –
 
GILBERT: Why don't you use the opportunity to ask the PM a question, just directly put one to him and PM can reply?
 
DUTTON: Are you the biggest spending government since Whitlam? So, 40 years, in 40 years, there has not been a higher spending government than your government. Is that correct?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's not true, except for the one that you were a part of.
 
DUTTON: Of course it's true.
 
PRIME MINISTER: And it's also true. It's also true that there was a $78 billion deficit planned in the 2022 election, that you had the March 2022 budget. The election was in May. And money splashed out, including the cut to fuel excise. All this money out the door. A $78 billion deficit projected. We turned that into a surplus. We had a $100 billion turnaround. Debt is $178 billion less now than what it was anticipated to be in the March 2022 budget. The previous Government promised a surplus in its first year, in 2014 and every year thereafter. They never delivered one. The only governments that have delivered two budget surpluses in a row is the one that I lead in the last 20 years, going back to the Howard government.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton, if you want to reply, you can, but haven't you lost the moral high ground because you've copied most of the Government's policies, including Medicare and various other commitments yet to come, like the ADF spending, which we're still awaiting?
 
DUTTON: Well, Kieran, a couple of points. One is that this is the highest spending Government in 40 years. That's the fact. Now, the fact is as the Prime Minister alluded to, but didn't quite get to the truthful point over COVID, he supported all the spending that was committed to by the Coalition and $50 billion more. That's what was proposed by Labor at the time. So, let's put all of that on the record. We have opposed $100 billion worth of spending under this government. They've spent an extra $425 billion. And that is why Australians have lived through basically two years of going backwards in their own household budgets, and it's why they're racking up $1.2 trillion worth of debt.
 
GILBERT: Mr Albanese, your question now to the Opposition Leader.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks. Well, my question to Peter is that you have posed every cost-of-living measure that we've put forward over the last three years in government. You now are going to an election with a nuclear plan that will build seven nuclear reactors that will cost $600 billion to provide 4% of power sometime in the 2040s. What are you going to cut to pay for it? Because the private sector won't fund nuclear reactors because it doesn't stack up. So, taxpayers, including everyone in this room, is going to have to pay for this nuclear plan.
 
DUTTON: Well, Anthony, with respect, that's a very dishonest point proposition you put. So, the CSIRO report puts the capital cost of nuclear at about $120 billion. Now, your plan, independently costed by Frontier Economics, a company used by the Labor Party and probably the best economist when it comes to looking at energy policy in the country, puts the Labor Party policy of renewables only at $600 billion. Our policy is 44% cheaper than that, $231 billion in total, $331 billion in total. The Labor Party's proposal is $263 billion more. Now, the Prime Minister, Chris Bowen, has never disputed that figure. There are 29 nuclear reactors being built in China at the moment. The United Kingdom Labor government has just announced that they can't achieve net zero by 2050 without cutting down on the approval times for small modular reactors and nuclear in those systems. We are paying three times the cost for electricity compared to Ontario, where they have nuclear in the system. In France there is 70% nuclear in the system. Our policy is to make sure that we can underpin our economy with a stable energy market for the next hundred years. So, the amortisation period or the life of the nuclear reactors lasts between 80 and 100 years and that cost is spread over that. I'd just say if the renewables are so much cheaper, as the Prime Minister keeps telling you, why has he broken his promise of a $275 a year cut to your electricity bill, when in actual fact it's gone up by $1,300 under this Government and families are struggling to pay their bills? And the difference between the two policies is that our policy is 44% cheaper. And in the interim, we increase the supply of gas into the market because gas helps create electricity. Gas helps create steel and bricks, and it will help with the construction sector, where we've got huge cost inflation at the moment. It will help bring down the prices for farmers and manufacturers and producers. And at the moment, the gas that we're exporting to foundation contracts and to many of our partners is important. But there is a lot of gas that's exported that we could turn back into the domestic market. We can reduce, as the independent analysis has shown, the cost of gas by about 15%. And that means we can bring down the cost of electricity. We can bring down the costs across the economy otherwise. And that is, I think, transformational for our economy. But of course, opposed by the Prime Minister.
 
GILBERT: Well, let's hear from him.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the only gas policy that the Coalition have is the gaslighting of the Australian public. He disagrees with all of the experts which are out there, whether it's the Australian Energy Market Operator, to -- everyone who looks at it. If the nuclear plan stacked up, the private sector would invest in it. But everyone who looks at it says it's the most expensive form of new energy. What we support is renewables backed by gas. We introduced the Future Gas Strategy. We have the gas security mechanism that we introduced in Parliament that they voted against to guarantee that domestic supply. So, we want renewables backed by gas, backed by batteries, backed by hydro. 24 out of the 28 coal fired power stations in Australia announced their closure during the former Government. They were there for a decade. There was no new coal-fired power stations built and there was no nuclear plant. 
 
GILBERT: Thanks. Let's hear from Prith now.
 
QUESTIONER: Hi, my name is Prith. I live in St George area, Kogarah. Recently as I've realised that whenever we have to go for medical visit, we have to pay doctors’ gap fee, which is increasing every day. So, it's very difficult with current cost of living crisis every time paying extra gap fee. So, I want to ask both of you, what's your plan? Do we want to increase Medicare funding so we won't have to pay extra gap fee, or is there any way where we can stop doctors to charge us extra?
 
GILBERT: Prith, thank you.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thanks very much, Prith, for that question. This is one of my government's priorities. And what we did in last year's Budget was we tripled the bulk billing incentive for doctors, the amount that they're paid for concession cardholders, for pensioners and others who go along, that resulted in a 90% rate of bulk billing. Now we now have another $8.5 billion to triple the incentive for everyone, all 27 million Australians, because we want those bulk billing rates to go up to 90%. On top of that, we have Medicare Urgent Care Clinics. There's one just down the road here in Wentworthville that I've been to with Andrew Charlton, the local member. They have seen 1.3 million Australians. One third of them are under the age of 15. And people can get the care that they need when they need it. In between, if it's not life threatening, you end up at an emergency department in between, if your kid breaks the arm or you need urgent assistance, but it's not life threatening, that's the place to go and that's made an enormous difference. And all you need is this little thing here. Prith, you just need your Medicare card, not your credit card because Labor created Medicare, will strengthen Medicare and will make sure that in the future, in the future we get those bulk billing rates back up to 90%.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton.
 
DUTTON: Prith, Could I just ask, please, it's a great question, but can I just ask, what's your experience. So, when you go to the doctor that you talk about with the gap fee, do you have to use just your Medicare card or do you have to use your credit card as well?
 
QUESTIONER: I have to use both because bulk billing doesn't cover the full charge. So, I have to pay $70 or $80 extra.
 
DUTTON: See, I hear that. Thank you very much. And I appreciate it, because yours is the story of literally hundreds of thousands, millions of Australians as well. And I've heard the Prime Minister run this stunt before with the only need your Medicare card. It's not true. Bulk billing rates have reduced under this government. And that's the reality. It's there in black and white. Not only that, the out-of-pocket expenses have increased as well, which is exactly your experience. I want to make sure that we can provide adequate funding. And we've announced almost $9.5 billion now into Medicare and Health services in our country. We need to train more GPs, and we've announced $400 million to train more GPs because we've got an ageing workforce and it's. Particularly difficult to get GPs out into the outer metro areas and regional areas as well. So, we need to make sure that we've got a system where you can go, particularly in a circumstance where you can't afford to pay with your credit card or you just don't have the cash available. I don't want you to miss out on going to the doctor. And what we're intent on doing is making sure that we can lift the bulk billing rate so that we can get support to families like yours. Under this government, though, the Mediscare campaign continues. But the Prime Minister, if he was being truthful with you, would say to that, yes, the cost that you're paying out of pocket has increased under this government and the fact is that bulk billing rates have fallen under Labor, including in this electorate here in Parramatta.
 
PRIME MINISTER: But, Peter, you tried, when you were the Health Minister, you tried to abolish bulk billing by having a fee every time people visit a doctor, or every time people visit an emergency department. That's what you did as Health Minister. And when you couldn't get that through, you froze the Medicare rebate, which stayed frozen for six years. That's why we are having to deal with this. That's why my government has had to find the eight and a half billion dollars that you've matched. To be fair, you have said you agree with our policy there, but we're repairing what we inherited, which was bulk billing in free fall while the coalition was in government.
 
DUTTON: Well, again, that is factually incorrect. So, I was Health Minister in 2013-14. The bulk billing rate in our country was 84 per cent. It went to 88 per cent by the time we finished government. And the Prime Minister rightly will point out that that includes services over Covid. But it was heading up under us. The fact is that it is now down to 77.
 
PRIME MINISTER: But Peter, did you try to introduce a charge to get rid of bulk billing?
 
DUTTON: I'm happy to come to that. So, it's now at 77 per cent. The Prime Minister wants you to believe that it's much higher and that it's in freefall. It's not. It wasn't in freefall under our government. And what has happened since the Prime Minister's been in power, over the last three years, it has come back. Now, doctors that we put into training, when I was health minister, when Greg Hunt was Health Minister, those doctors have graduated at a record number and are coming into the healthcare system now. We invested into that. Our desire in relation to the whole health system was to make sure that we had a strong general practice. Because, it's the experience of all of us, when you have young kids or you've got aged parents, you need to be able to have a relationship with the general practise or a doctor that you can go to regularly. You need to be able to make sure that you can get an appointment, which is difficult at the moment. And we were trying and we will always do our best. And that's why we've supported the funding now to build general practice. I want to see a strong primary care network because if we do that, we can stop presentations at emergency departments. We can stop – we can detect earlier, cancers. And that's the whole idea of having a strong network of general practice. And under our watch, the bulk billing rate increased. Under this watch, under the Prime Minister's watch, it has gone down. And that is –
 
GILBERT: I want to move on. Here’s Riya. Thank you.
 
QUESTIONER: I'm from West Pennant Hills and grew up in a hard-working migrant family. Mr Dutton, how will cutting migration affect industries like healthcare and construction, and what will you do to ensure migration discussions remain respectful and avoid demonising migrants?
 
DUTTON: Well, the point I made before was that I think we are a greater country because of our migrant story, and I think we should celebrate it more as a country. People who came here with nothing, people who have worked hard. The same story of migrants today. But we have to have a well-managed program. And when you bring in a million people over the course of two years, that is going to have an impact on health services, on infrastructure, on education, right across the economy. So, if we've had a 65 per cent increase, and if the government's going to bring in a population bigger than Adelaide over a five-year period and take money out of infrastructure at the same time, it's going to have an impact. So we have to have a managed migration program and our argument is that you can reduce it from the record level that it's at the moment, down by 25 per cent for two years, which will create about 100,000 homes. And that will help young Australians get into housing.
 
GILBERT: We've got a question from Janine. Thanks, Janine.
 
QUESTIONER: Hi. I'm 74 years old. I worked very hard all my life. I didn't come from money at all. I came from average family. You work hard, you save, you buy your home, you have your children, and you move on. Okay. My future, well, not worried about it. My children's future and my grandchildren's future, I worry about, because I have not seen any government take control of a fact, and it is a fact, a lot of foreign companies and countries buy Australian farmland. We have a lot of migrants. Sorry, not migrants, I shouldn't say that. We have a lot of students who are here visiting who are buying housing within the city area. And we have a lot of people here just on visas, buying properties here in Sydney, and they are now empty. We have a lot of housing within the city areas that are empty because they are owned by foreigners who do not live in this country. When is one of our government's going to turn up and say Australia belongs to Australians and therefore our land remains Australian land?
 
DUTTON: Well, Janine, you're selling yourself short. You look pretty healthy and well, so –
 
QUESTIONER: I don’t feel it Peter, I can assure you.
 
DUTTON: A couple of points. We're a small nation, 27 million people, and we produce more than we can consume in our country. And if you talk to our farmers or talk to our manufacturers, we want to open up markets and export, and we want to trade with the world. And that's always been the case. [INTERJECTION] No. And so in relation to, land, uh, that is part of that discussion. So people want to invest into our country. We have limits in relation to purchases being made. Your point is that they could be made tougher. And that's a fair point to make. What I'd say in relation to housing is that we have announced as part of our housing policy, not just the $5 billion to create the 500,000 new homes, not just to cut to migration so we can get Australian kids into housing, but also a two-year ban on foreign buyers from purchasing existing housing stock here. And that's because I don't want foreign buyers competing against young Australians at auctions or at the sale of a house that they've got their minds set on. Beg your pardon?
 
QUESTIONER: You said existing. Does that stop them from buying – from building new homes, buying property and building new homes?
 
DUTTON: So the reason that, it's a fair question, the reason that we've asked, the reason that we've stated that we're talking about existing homes is that if you look at unit developments, there is a certain number of pre-sales that need to take place before that unit development can be completed. So, if they don't get the pre-sales, they don't get the finance and the apartment block of 200 units doesn't get built. So what we didn't want to do was cut out some of those pre-sales. And a portion of some of those pre-sales will be to foreign students, for example. But it allows that project to get up and running, and it allows those 200 units to come onto the market.
 
GILBERT: I want to give the PM some time because we've only got, yeah, not long, so, yeah.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, thanks very much, Janine. Thank for the question, but more importantly, thanks for what you've done, helping to build our country. We are the best country on Earth because of your hard work, including raising children here. Have you got any grandkids
 
QUESTIONER: Two.
 
PRIME MINISTER: And two grandkids as well, that's fantastic. So, look, we have the same policy is already in place, effectively. We have put in place a two-year ban on foreign ownership of homes. We think that's appropriate, at the moment, in order to ensure that homes are available for Australians. We want to increase the supply of homes, that’s absolutely central to a range of policies that we've put in place, whether it be private rentals, whether it be public and social housing where I grew up, or whether it be home ownership as well.
 
GILBERT: Okay. Next question.
 
QUESTIONER: Hi. My question is to both of you. So, in terms of the solar rebate, I know strategies have been implemented before. In the future, how do you plan to improve that?
 
GILBERT: Prime Minister?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah look, solar policy is really important. And we have the largest number of solar panels on roofs per head of population of anywhere in the world. And the perception that somehow this is an inner-city thing, of course, is completely wrong. The rate in Blacktown is ten times the rate in Bondi. What we don't have enough of is batteries, to make sure that the power can be absorbed, if you like, when the sun is shining, and then it can roll out and be used during peak periods. Now that's good for individuals, the householder, because it can reduce, it will reduce of course, their power bills, and we'll provide a 30 per cent rebate for batteries. But it's also important for everyone else, because what it does is take pressure off the energy grid and mean that the prices for everyone in terms of the energy will be less as well. So we think this is really important. The other thing we think is important is that we make things here. There isn't a solar panel in the world that doesn't have intellectual property that was made here at the University of New South Wales or the Australian National University. What we haven't been good at in this country is commercialising the innovation. You know, we're a smart country and what I want to do, and that's what a Future Made in Australia is about, is to make sure we seize the opportunities to make more things here, commercialise innovation when they happen here, and make sure that we really take advantage of it rather than just export our resources overseas, so the job’s created overseas, and then we buy the products back when they're finished.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton, your response to that?
 
DUTTON: Well, firstly, we've strongly supported rooftop solar and that's been a really integral part of the rollout, as the Prime Minister pointed out. And it's received subsidies at a State Government level, and the Federal Government has put money into that, both Liberal and Labor, to be fair. The difficulty is that a lot of people have had to put solar on their roofs, because they just can't cope with the power bills that they've got. And so for a period of time, people saw a reduction in their electricity bills, and now they've seen their prices spike again. Now, the Prime Minister's policy in relation to batteries is that he's asking you to provide a subsidy or to support a subsidy for people on higher incomes, like me, to buy a battery at a subsidised price. And I don't believe that's fair. I don't think that your next door neighbour, who is earning less than you or is struggling to pay the bills at the moment, should be paying extra taxes to fund a battery for you on a higher income or in a better position. So, I think solar has been really important, but let's realise the reality in people's lives as to why there has been such an uptake. You can tell your kids so many times to turn the lights off, and you can try and put all sorts of energy saving uses into your household. But the reality is that many people have taken up solar because the price of electricity has just gone through the roof. [INTERJECTION] Well, we want to make sure that we can provide support to people, but I'm not going to say to you that we're going to support a policy where people who are on lower incomes, who are struggling at the moment, are expected to subsidise a battery for people on higher incomes.
 
GILBERT: Let's move on if we can. I just want to move on if we can, because we've only.
 
PRIME MINISTER: But Peter, they all are supposed to subsidise nuclear reactors?
 
GILBERT: We've got eight minutes.
 
DUTTON: As they are offshore wind and your green hydrogen, which doesn't work.
 
GILBERT: Eight minutes to go. So if we can keep these answers nice and tight, that'd be good. Here's Jane.
 
QUESTIONER: Hi. So I live in a semi-rural sort of area. Obviously there's a lot of issues. Like, obviously we've got one high school in our area that's public, and one that's private, unless the kids want to travel 40 minutes on a train. And roads are absolutely like, crap, we're not as close to the airport and stuff. I'm wondering, what are you going to do for semi-rural sort of areas like Tahmoor?
 
GILBERT: Thanks, Jane. PM. Any thoughts?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Tahmoor’s a beautiful part of outer Sydney, if you can call it that. It’s a fair way away. And one of the things that we are doing, one of the things I want to see, of course, is the railway line through Bradfield, through the airport that's going to be there, extended down into the Macarthur region as well. One of the things I want to see is those north-south corridor in outer western Sydney actually connected up. In addition to that, of course, roads funding, we have doubled the Roads to Recovery program. That's for local councils to fix up local roads. On schools, those schools will benefit from our school funding program. The Medicare changes that we're making will make it easier to see a doctor. We are putting in Medicare Urgent Care Clinics, another 50 of them as well. And I don't – do you have kids in childcare or what's your personal circumstances?
 
QUESTIONER: Oh, so my kids are both in primary school, but my son's not far off high school. That's why I was wondering about mostly, I guess, around the infrastructure of, like, high schools, because there's only one public and one private in the area.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. Look, the schools, by and large, in terms of capital funding, is done by state governments. But one of the things that we're making sure that we do – the agreement for New South Wales alone that we've signed with the New South Wales Government is worth over $4 billion of additional funding for public schools here.
 
GILBERT: On the, um, something related, because, you know, for the regional and sort of outer urban areas – work from home. I'm wondering why you both don't have some inclination to support it. Chris Minns was out there today saying how good it is for mentoring young people, to get people back in the office, that you need it for team morale and productivity. Why did you dump it?
 
DUTTON: Well, Kieran, our policy applied to public servants in Canberra. The Prime Minister wanted people to believe that it was applying across the economy and it was going to affect every workplace, which was never the policy at all. So what we've said is that if there is an arrangement that you've got in your workplace with your boss and you can work from home or whatever the flexible arrangements are, that's fantastic. That's a decision between you and your employer in your workplace, and there's no issue. We've never had any issue with that whatsoever. Our argument in relation to Canberra was that we wanted to make sure, and we do want to make sure that taxpayers who are working hard, providing their taxes to the Commonwealth Government, that that money is being spent in the most efficient way. The Government's increased the public service in Canberra by about 20 per cent, and we want to make sure that we have flexible arrangements in place. That's fine, and we've made that clear. Hopefully that stops the lies from being told.
 
GILBERT: Just quickly, if just, very quickly if you can. Chris Minns is on board, why not you?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Peter hasn't been able to stand up for his own policy, so I don't know how he can stand up for Australia. Working from home is a really important component in modern families. I was in Wallan just, the day before yesterday, which is a similar distance from Tahmoor, but outside of Melbourne. That family, four days an IT consultant, goes into the office on a Friday, and the mum stays at home on the Friday. She's a TAFE teacher, she works for the public sector, and the truth is that public sector work conditions often then flow through to the private sector. And the truth is as well, that every public servant isn't in Canberra. They're all around Australia helping people in Centrelink offices around here, helping people with assistance right around the entire country.
 
GILBERT: We've got time for one quick question and a quick answer from both, if we can, before your closing remarks. Gentleman with a very rich heritage in the name, politically – Winston. Thanks, Winston.
 
QUESTIONER: Thank you. I just have a quick question. I'm just wondering, why does the tax cuts that you have proposed, why are they for everyone and not just targeted for better cost of living towards those who need it more?
 
GILBERT: Yeah. Nice question, quick answers please.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much. To put really clearly, there were tax cuts legislated under the former government. They went primarily – I would have got $9,000, so would Peter. Instead, we got $4500 and we gave it to everyone, by lowering that bottom marginal tax rate. Now, what we've done is we'll lower it by a cent and then a further cent over the next, over the next term of government, because we want to make sure that every Australian got a tax cut. And the way that you make sure that low and middle income earners benefit is to target that first marginal tax rate that kicks in, of course, at $18,200 and goes up to $45,000.
 
GILBERT: Let's wrap up if we can. We're going to get the final statements in a moment. Just a couple of quick answers if I can quickly just to rule out no cuts to health care, because that's what's been asserted to you
 
DUTTON: No cuts. No cuts and we'll legislate it. And we've been very clear about it.
 
GILBERT: And under the alliance – AUKUS – you're going to crack on with that regardless of the mayhem out of Washington? You believe it stacks up, and you've got internal critics as well?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. I have never said that we should link our defence arrangements, which are in our national interest, with the tariff issue.
 
GILBERT: And you won't make any changes to work from home at all next term?
 
DUTTON: No, and we've been very clear about that.
 
GILBERT: Okay. And, uh, well, finally, yeah, on the Voice, you won't legislate the Voice after losing the referendum.
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, we respect the decision.
 
GILBERT: And the Greens, you'll take their votes, won't do deals. Is that a fair way to.
 
PRIME MINISTER: There'll be no deals with the Greens, by me, after the election. And I'm aiming for majority government. We hold 78 seats. I'm aiming to hold every one of them.
 
GILBERT: I'm assuming no deal with the Greens for you?
 
DUTTON: No. No deals with the Greens.
 
GILBERT: Let's wrap up with some closing statements. Prime Minister, thanks to you.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you very much, everyone, for your questions and for the way that we've engaged together tonight. I think the People's Forum is a really important part of the Australian political landscape, now, here in Australia. And it's great that it's the first debate that's been held. But Peter said, that there'd be no cuts to health. But they said that last time, when they came into office in 2013, they said there'd be no cuts to health, no cuts to education, no cuts to the ABC. And the truth is, that they ripped into education, they ripped into health, they cut the ABC, and they did everything that they said they would not do. Now, if you have a $600 billion nuclear plant, you've got to make cuts. The money has to come from somewhere. We have been a responsible government that have delivered budget surpluses, that have got the budget in better nick. We've provided cost of living support when it's needed whilst getting inflation down. But there's more to do to build on the foundations, to build a stronger future. And I know that in this uncertain time with what's going on in the world, now is not the time to make cuts, to have the sort of policies that we've seen in the last week where they've chopped and changed even before the election. So, how can you believe what they do after the election?
 
GILBERT: Prime Minister, thank you. Mr Dutton.
 
DUTTON: Thanks, Kieran. And thank you to everyone for being here tonight. Thank you, Anthony, for being here as well. I said before that it was confronting to see the hands go up with people who were struggling at the moment. And when the Prime Minister says that this has been a successful three-year period, it's just in defiance of the reality of people's lives and where we are as a country right now. We face incredibly difficult times, not just because of what's coming out of the United States at the moment and the tariff debate with China, and whatever the retaliation might be from other countries as well. A Coalition government will always be a better economic manager. We will always manage the economy well, which means that we can deal with the cost-of-living crisis more effectively. That is about helping families. It is about making sure that we don't see a repeat of the 30,000 small businesses that have gone to the wall over the last three years. The Prime Minister spent the first 16 months of this term obsessing about the Voice, which was a $425 million red herring that proved to be a distraction, an attempt to divide the country.

And when that debate was taking place, the Prime Minister should have been making decisions around how best to protect us from inflation. That was obvious off the back of COVID. I want to make sure that we can restore the dream of home ownership. I want to make sure that we can deliver a first-class health system. I want to make sure that we can live in a safe country.
The Prime Minister says that we live in the most precarious period since the end of the Second World War, since 1945, and then takes $80 billion out of defence. I want to keep us safe as a community, safe as a country, and I want to make sure that we can help families deal with Labor's cost-of-living crisis. We don't need a Labor-Greens minority government after the election, given the headwinds that we're seeing at the moment. The Treasurer today was in panic mode talking about the prospect of a recession next month, which is a disaster for our economy and it shows that Labor just doesn't know how to manage money or the economy.
 
GILBERT: Mr Dutton, thank you. Mr Albanese. Thank you both for your time. 
 
ENDS