SUBJECTS: Chaos and disunity within the Coalition; text messages concerning Scott Morrison; Labor’s policy agenda; climate change; COVID recovery; Scott Morrison’s failures during the COVID-19 pandemic; aged care crisis; religious discrimination bill; Federal election.
 
MICHELLE GRATTAN, HOST: Scott Morrison is proving to be God's gift to Anthony Albanese just now, with two sets of leaked text messages coming out just in the past week, besmirching the Prime Minister's character. The polls are showing Labor ahead as the election nears. The Government is clearly struggling on issues ranging from aged care to its COVID response generally, to managing internal divisions over its religious discrimination legislation. Nevertheless, after its experience in 2019, Labor is taking nothing for granted in this election. It knows that the run down the home straight is always unpredictable. Today on the podcast, we speak to Anthony Albanese at the start of a sitting fortnight guaranteed to be eventful. Anthony Albanese, are you confident there are no nasty text messages in the phones of any of your colleagues? Or are you just lucky there are no leakers?
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Well, what I'm confident of is that this is a Government that has stopped governing. That's the problem. The problem isn't that they don't like each other. The problem isn't that they're giving character assessments about how untrustworthy and dishonest the Prime Minister is according to their own accounts. The problem is they're not dealing with the aged care crisis, they're not dealing with the problem of wages not keeping up with the cost of living, they're not dealing with any future challenges that face Australia.
 
GRATTAN: Labor is attacking Scott Morrison's character, and it's been given a lot of ammunition in the last little while. But will the public just think that all politicians lie?
 
ALBANESE: Well, this is Government members attacking the Prime Minister's character, including the Deputy Prime Minister, who was the Former Deputy Prime Minister, who formed this view over a long period of time, as well as the former Prime Minister, Turnbull, as well as Gladys Berejiklian, the former Premier of New South Wales, and an unnamed Cabinet colleague, all making assessments. And people will look at what Scott Morrison does. He stood up in Parliament, for example, and said that he had told me that he was going to Hawaii in a text message. That was not true. He had to stand up just a short period of time later and say that. And when he did, he said, 'Well, why would I?' That reminded me, when I looked at Barnaby Joyce's text message, about the way that he makes a lie from circumstances and twists information and what he says. It's quite damning, the character assessment of the Deputy Prime Minister. And I can't see how the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister can continue to serve in that one-on-one relationship.
 
GRATTAN: Now, turning to you and Labor, there's a feeling you personally are not well enough known by voters. Why is this when you've been around a very long time? And do you have time between now and the election to fix this problem?
 
ALBANESE: Well, in the immediate past, of course, there's been a concentration, because of the pandemic, on people who are in leadership positions, in terms of the Prime Minister giving a media conference just about every day, at some stage, with an update of the health outcomes, and every state premier and chief Minister doing that as well. The Chief Minister of the ACT, Andrew Barr, has been on live TV more than all of his predecessors combined over many decades. That's just a fact that we have to deal with. But I've been a Deputy Prime Minister. I've served and been Acting Prime Minister on occasions as well during that period. I was Leader of the Government in the House of Representatives for six years. I served as Infrastructure, Communications, Transport, Regional Development, Local Government Minister. And I have a relationship going back to communities right around Australia during that period. And relationships with the business community and with people in electorates from east to west and north to south. So, my record in forming Infrastructure Australia, forming the Australian Council of Local Government, establishing Regional Development Australia, making a difference with a fibre-based National Broadband Network. These are all records that I can point to. And when I go to venues around Australia, when I was in Ingham recently, I was able to look at the major cultural centre that was built when I was the Minister. And everywhere I go around the country, I can point to areas where I've made a substantial difference as a Minister in the Government. And since then, as well, as Opposition Leader over three years, I've been able to get out and talk with people as much as possible. Now, there have been restrictions because of the pandemic. But of course, during a campaign is when people really focus as well. And I'm very confident about my record as a Minister. The fact that I've been Opposition Leader for almost three years and the Government hadn't been able to attack any of my legacy says, I think, a lot about the achievements and how effective I was as a Minister.
 
GRATTAN: Last election, Labor was too defined, it was too policy heavy. But could it be not defined enough this time around?
 
ALBANESE: I'm very confident that we have substantial policy out there. Have a look at what we've done just since December. We've landed a climate change policy that's supported by the Business Council of Australia, the National Farmers' Federation, Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Australian Industry Group, as well as the ACTU and mainstream environmental groups. We have announced 465,000 free TAFE places in areas of skill shortage and 20,000 additional university places. We've announced that high-speed rail priority would be between Newcastle and Sydney as the first stage. We have announced a national disaster fund for Australia recovering and getting preparedness for natural disasters. We have announced an education policy of people being able to catch up, students who've missed out during the pandemic as well. So, we have substantial levels of policy out there. They are policies that are effective. They're policies that relate very much to people's everyday lives. And they're all about a better future for Australia. And the weakness we had last time was we did have a lot of policies, but we didn't have a narrative, a story to tell. We want a stronger Australia coming back, based upon the three sub themes of - a future made in Australia, of rising living standards, and more secure work.
 
GRATTAN: On the pandemic, at the moment, one of the really sharp points of debate is what's happening in aged care, which is terrible. We've heard of so many deaths and bad conditions and people isolated. Now, you suggested sending in the Defence Forces. Apart from that, what else should be done now to make things better in this sector?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we have a crisis right now. Rapid antigen tests need to be made available for staff and residents. We need to make sure that PPE is available for staff as well. We need to make sure that people are able to get food and water, able to have their wounds tended to. It is extraordinary that in the third year of the pandemic, this Government are so complacent, are so obsessed by themselves, that they have allowed this circumstance to occur. And the first person to call for the Defence Force to be used, of course, was Mike Baird, the former New South Wales Liberal Premier, who runs one of the large service providers, because he knows that the work shortages which are there are causing real stress and trauma. We have had over 600 lives lost in aged care to COVID just this year alone. And the Government have sat back. And extraordinarily, the Aged Care Minister last week said that it was not a crisis and that the system was coping 'exceptionally well' was the term that he used. He's unfit to be a Minister. The first thing that should happen is that he should go, and someone should be put in charge who will actually do the job.
 
GRATTAN: Now, the Government will run hard in this election on economic management and on its tax record. You say it's a very high taxing Government. Can you guarantee that taxes would not go up under a Labor Government in its first term?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we know that this Government are the second highest taxing Government as a proportion of GDP, only beaten by the Howard Government. We know that they have an economic record, which is a trillion dollars of debt and nothing to show for it. No major infrastructure, no major reform whatsoever. So, we have made it very clear that the policies that we take to the election are the ones that I announce. And so, I've said we're giving consideration to multinationals in terms of taxation. But what we want to do is to actually grow the economy. Grow the economy by having a plan of industry policy that we have with our National Reconstruction Fund. We're being very cautious as well about spending commitments, making sure that areas like the National Reconstruction Fund, the Rewiring the Nation Plan to fix electricity transmission, all major programs that will be off-budget, will not have a fiscal impact on the Budget. And that's because we want to make sure that we are economically responsible. And I'm very confident about being able to not just compete with the Government, but beat the Government on the economic arguments going forward. Because they don't have a plan for growth. They don't have a plan going forward for how you create new jobs, how you lift living standards. And we do.
 
GRATTAN: Just to be precise about this, though. The overall level of taxation would not be higher under Labor than it is at the moment?
 
ALBANESE: We're not planning anything in that direction at all. And we've made that very clear. The truth is that our record, as the former Labor Government, taxes were lower than they are today under this Government.
 
GRATTAN: When you present your policy costings later in the campaign, would your aim be to have a better budget bottom line than that in the March '29 Budget?
 
ALBANESE: Our aim will be to announce that at the time. And of course, we don't know what's in their Budget.
 
GRATTAN: But you'll know quite soon, in terms of the bottom line.
 
ALBANESE: We'll know and then be able to have an assessment then. But we don't know. We know that they have $16 billion in the Budget of decisions taken but not announced. We don't know what that is.
 
GRATTAN: To be fair, I think about half of that is commercial in confidence matters.
 
ALBANESE: Quite frankly, I don't believe it, Michelle. I don't believe there are $8 billion of decisions that are commercial in confidence. I think that's a convenient excuse for a Government that hates transparency, that is the most wasteful Government prone to pork-barrelling in Australian political history. And we'll see more of that. And that provides us with the potential, Michelle, for savings. Because if there is just waste, as I expect there to be, when you're doing things like providing funding for commuter car parks where there are no train stations, for example, or for women's sporting infrastructure where women aren't part of the club, then that presents an opportunity for common sense to apply and for savings.
 
GRATTAN: Just on some specific issues. Dental care is a big thing for many people. Will your policy bundle include something on this?
 
ALBANESE: Look, we'll make decisions about health issues, including Medicare issues and how to strengthen Medicare, between now and the election. We have said very clearly, very early on I said we kick with the wind in the fourth quarter.
 
GRATTAN: I think we're in the fourth quarter.
 
ALBANESE: We're in the fourth quarter. And we have been kicking with the wind. Since December 1, we have had all of those policy announcements out there. There'll be more to come. I have a Budget Reply. I have a campaign to run. We'll have more to say on health between now and the election.
 
GRATTAN: Something that's very immediate, the Government wants to push through its religious discrimination bill as soon as possible, presumably this week, because there's only this week, I think, of the Senate, and then the Budget week later. What's Labor's attitude on this?
 
ALBANESE: We want to know what the Government's doing. The Prime Minister wrote to me in December, when Parliament was sitting on the Wednesday night, asking for an urgent meeting. I wrote back to him saying I was prepared to have a discussion. He wanted to just put it through the Parliament the next day. The truth is that was before any of the committees had given consideration to the legislation. And now, it's just unclear what the Government's position is. They have ministers out there contradicting each other as to whether, for example, it would allow for discrimination against students. We've said, very clearly, that's something that we don't support.
 
GRATTAN: They've now got a separate bill, though, haven't they, for that?
 
ALBANESE: It's unclear, Michelle. They have had every position possible on this since they introduced the legislation. Scott Morrison put to me a very specific commitment about amendments to the legislation. Now, there's talk about separate bills. We will wait and see what they actually come up with. And then we'll consider those issues through our proper processes. We'll be meeting later today and then later on the week, when eventually the Government gets its act together to tell us what their position is.
 
GRATTAN: Can I put it this way? Do you want to get some religious discrimination bill through in a form that's acceptable to you? Or do you think this is a non-issue that really is not worth pursuing, certainly at this time?
 
ALBANESE: Well, people shouldn't be discriminated against because of their faith.
 
GRATTAN: So, you do favour some sort of bill?
 
ALBANESE: Well, people shouldn't be discriminated against on the basis of their faith, or their gender, or their sexuality, or their race. That's my position. It's something that I've had for a long period of time. But legislation has to be workable. And the test is - can you ensure that you're supporting non-discrimination without discriminating against another group? That's the test here that we've said all along we would apply. But I do not believe that anyone should be discriminated against on the basis of their faith.
 
GRATTAN: It sounds as though you believe it's probably too hard to just sort this.
 
ALBANESE: No, well, this Government, the problem is they can't even agree with each other, let alone deal with things in the Parliament. But we'll wait and see. If something is workable, we're certainly up for being constructive. Something that's defined my leadership of the Labor Party is that we have always been constructive and always prepared to work in a way that provides goodwill, if the goodwill is there.
 
GRATTAN: On climate change, do you think this will be a major issue at this election or do you think it's going to be a more second-order issue compared with COVID and economic issues?
 
ALBANESE: Well, COVID and the recovery from COVID will be the number one issue, both the Government's handling of it, but also the recovery. But climate change will be a major issue as well for this election. People will know that if you want to end the climate wars and have serious policy on climate change, then you need to change the government. You will need a Labor Government. We have put forward a coherent, comprehensive plan that will see emissions reduced by 43 per cent by 2030, $52 billion of private sector investment, 604,000 new jobs created, five out of every six of those in the regions. We will see renewables rise to 82 per cent of the national electricity market by 2030 and be consistent with achieving net zero by 2050. We have a coherent plan out there. And this will be a chance to end the climate wars, which is what the business community wants, that certainty to be able to invest. And it's what the nation and the planet needs as well.
 
GRATTAN: Climate was a very difficult issue for Labor in Queensland last time. Now, you have spent a lot of time going around Queensland, campaigning recently. Do you think it will be an easier issue there this time? And how many seats do you think, realistically, you could win in Queensland?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we have a constructive proposal on climate change, which has received substantial support.
 
GRATTAN: But in Queensland when you were on the ground?
 
ALBANESE: When I was in Queensland on the ground, absolutely. So, when I went to, to give an example, when I went to Rio Tinto's Alumina refinery just outside of Gladstone, I spoke to the workers and management there. They're planning to use clean energy to drive down their emissions, to lift their productivity, to lower their costs. That's what's driving this change. And throughout Queensland, they understand that's the case. They understand that clean energy can provide cheaper energy as well, which will help to boost high-value manufacturing in the regions in Queensland, as well as lowering emissions. Good policy on climate change is good for jobs, good for lowering energy prices, as well as being good for emissions. And I think that we can do quite well in Queensland.
 
GRATTAN: How many seats?
 
ALBANESE: I'm not putting a number on it. We drove to from Cairns to Maryborough, with one flight during that. But we spent a lot of time on the ground. I did 20 cities and towns in 10 days. And the reception was exceptionally good, whether it be in high-value manufacturing in the resources sector, whether it was agricultural sector, whether it was in the emergency responders, it was extremely positive. And I'm confident that we can do well in Queensland and have more Queensland members of our Caucus after the next election. Because I want to represent the entire country. And at the moment, Queensland, we don't have enough representatives. We've got the quality, but we need to match that with the quantity. And I also think that we have outstanding candidates in the key seats in Queensland.
 
GRATTAN: Now, just finally, what would you say is Labor's biggest impediment in winning this election? For example, you have a lot of seats on very small margins that could go. And yet, the Coalition doesn't have so many seats on small margins, so they'll be harder for you to win.
 
ALBANESE: It's always tough for Labor to win government from opposition. It's only happened three times in my lifetime, with Whitlam, Hawke, and Rudd. So, we know it's difficult. In my time in the Parliament, we have won just once in a majority.
 
GRATTAN: So, what is the biggest challenge?
 
ALBANESE: The biggest challenge is to win enough seats. It's up to others to identify what the challenges are. But it's always a challenge for Labor to win. Government means that you have additional resources for sitting local members, you have the power of government, with tens of thousands of bureaucrats giving you advice. You start off with a huge advantage when you're the government party. Now, the fact that the Government don't seem to like each other and spend a lot of time fighting itself is a distraction for that. But nonetheless, they start with a big advantage. We have a lot less members, a lot less staff, a lot less resources than the Government has. But I'm confident that this Government don't deserve a second decade in office. And we're putting forward a constructive plan around the theme of a better future and that we can win the support of the Australian people. And that if I have the honour of forming a Government, it will be a Government that will make Australia proud
 
GRATTAN: Anthony Albanese, thank you very much for talking with The Conversation's Politics Podcast. Thank you to my producer, Ellen Duffy. That's all for now. But we'll be back with another interview soon. Goodbye for now.
 
ENDS