ELLEN FANNING, HOST: Well, the Albanese Government will be pushing the Fair Work Commission for an above inflation wage increase for 3 million workers on minimum rates this year. Labor's submission to the Fair Work Commission's annual wage review calls for an economically sustainable lift to the minimum hourly rate of $24.10. The first time in four years the Government's asked for a real increase to minimum wages. The Prime Minister's on the line now. Where are you today, PM?
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: I'm in Melbourne, I've been in Melbourne and Burnie in Tasmania today. So, it's been another busy day on the campaign trail, but an important one because this submission is about making sure that workers on the minimum wage or on award wages, there's 3 million of them, get a real wage increase. They have had that as a direct result of our interventions and our support for Fair Work Commission cases. We've made submissions each and every year, and that has meant the national minimum wage has increased by around about $7,500 a year, $143 a week. And that has made a difference to them, together with our tax cuts that they've already received, of course. But the additional tax cuts will mean another $2,500 in total, with the top up, in their pockets. So, we want Australians to earn more and keep more of what they earn. And that's one of the big issues in this campaign because real wages were going backwards under the former government, as a deliberate design feature. And now Peter Dutton is saying that he will increase income taxes for all 14 million Australians if he is elected.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Prime Minister, in the past your government has said to the Commission in your submission about the minimum wage, look, just make sure real wages don't go backwards. Now you're asking for an actual real wage rise, which suggests it'll have to be a rise that's higher than the rate of inflation. The Budget says that number is 2.5%. How big is the wage increase you're going to ask the Fair Work Commission for?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we won't put a number on it. What we are saying in our submission to the Fair Work Commission is that we want to see an economically sustainable real wage increase.
 
ELLEN FANNING: And what does that mean? Given that inflation, the Budget reckons, is running at 2.5%, it'd have to be higher than two and a half percent.
 
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is higher, correct. In the past our submissions have said we don't want people to go backwards, we want people to maintain their living standards at least, and that is what the Fair Work Commission have done, and that's a good thing. Remember when we went through Covid, everyone went around and said, what heroes our cleaners, our childcare workers, our essential workers were. Those people who kept the shops going, the people who kept the shelves full of goods. And we need to do more than just thank these people. We need to make sure that they're looked after and respected and we've done that in this area. Earlier today I was at a childcare centre, of course, people who are the early educators are getting a 15% wage increase, 10% the current year, and then followed up by 5%. People in aged care have got a 28% wage increase because if we didn't do that, the aged care system was in danger of collapse. They wouldn't have had a workforce.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Yeah, it's an interesting debate to have a major employer group, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry said the minimum wage increase should not exceed inflation and must be linked to productivity because anything above that 2.5% would threaten the viability of small to medium businesses. And it does bring you back to productivity, doesn't it, as an issue? That's the output per hour worked. If a worker can produce more effectively, they get a new computer, they get a new way of working, the boss invests in new technology, they have smarter ways of doing things, they can be paid more because they're more productive. But our productivity in Australia has stalled since 2016. So, how do we get ahead? How can we afford to pay higher wages if there's not greater productivity?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are targeting productivity through the better use of new technologies, information technologies, new methods of work, as well as the training that we're offering. That's why we've instituted Free TAFE. That's why we're making sure that our schools funding agreement that we landed with Queensland with the Crisafulli Government just a week ago, is about making sure a better educated workforce, a better skilled up workforce is able to boost that productivity as well as using capital investment through new technology, of course, is another way that that can occur.
 
ELLEN FANNING: And that's generational change, isn't it? But I mean, Alan Kohler made a point in an article yesterday for the ABC that, you know, the only small increase in productivity, the only measure the Productivity Commission has put forward to really kickstart our productivity that's been embraced by your Government, has been, essentially, around non-compete clauses, which is minor, important, but a fairly minor move towards increasing productivity.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I tell you what, it's not minor for those people who will take advantage of it. If you've got a hairdresser who had to sign an agreement that they couldn't go to any other hairdresser in order to work and get a better wage and to show off, essentially, get the advantage from their skills that they've learned, non-compete clauses were holding back people from improvements in work and productivity because what it meant was people were tied to a single employer. Now that's not good for productivity as well. And that's why it was part of the Budget measure. It's part of recommendations that we've received looking at how you improve productivity. But that's not all we've done. The education and training agenda is a major agenda. People, your listeners, would be familiar with the term, the Gonski Review, that David Gonski did 15 years ago and hadn't been delivered. We are delivering better and fairer funding for schools. That is how you make a difference as well. Free TAFE is how you make a difference as well. Of course, investing in new technologies.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Can I put this to you, Prime Minister? The only way that living standards grow is if people can get a pay increase, can earn a pay increase that is greater than the rate of inflation, right? That's the only way that living standards grow. The Fair Work Commission said last year they couldn't justify lifting wages higher than the rate of inflation because of weak productivity. The Reserve Bank of Australia Governor said yesterday we cannot have wage growth in the medium term if we don't get productivity growth. I mean, we're not looking at any kind of growth. If you look at the Budget numbers, we're looking at about 1.75% productivity growth. Where are the big changes that are necessary? The sort of things the Productivity Commission recommended in a major report it did some years ago, 71 recommendations to kick start productivity in this country right now. Not in the generation when we train people or get them through school.
 
PRIME MINISTER: We are certainly working on productivity. And even the figures that you gave, if that was a figure that was then added to inflation, then the Fair Work Commission will be giving a very significant increase over this period of time. So, what we want to do, though, is to make sure when it comes to living standards there is another way that you can make a difference as well to improving living standards and that's cutting taxes. We're doing that as well as putting forward this submission for real wage increases. And indeed, there has been a real wage increase. That is wages have increased more than inflation for five quarters in a row under my Government. That is something that's a conscious decision that we have made and something that we're very proud of. It is something that Labor Governments will always look to improve living standards. It's not surprising that employers say, oh well, we can't afford to do it. I've never seen an employer submission say we want more wages to be paid, rather than just keeping up with the inflation rate. That's business as usual, really. And I'm not critical of ACCI for saying that, they've got a representative duty for their constituency. But my constituency is your listeners, people who've been doing it tough and they deserve to get ahead, which is why we're determined to increase wages, to decrease taxes and we want people to earn more and keep more of what they earn. And that is in stark contrast with our opponents.
 
ELLEN FANNING: And just very finally and briefly on this because we'll move on to Mr Trump and his tariffs. But are you confident that this sort of increase would not, as the employer group says, threaten the viability of small to medium businesses? What's your message to them?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. There has never been more small businesses in Australia than right now. And I make this point as well that when a low paid worker does get an increase in their wage, then what happens is that they spend it. And guess what, a lot of that spending happens in small business, in their local community. That's how the economy has that flow through of economic activity. And that is something very much that we support.
 
ELLEN FANNING: The Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese on the line at 19 minutes past 3 on 612 ABC Brisbane. The reports today, PM, say the Albanese Government's bracing for Trump to impose Liberation Day tariffs of up to 20% on Australian goods and services flowing into the United States. Is that the number we should be bracing for? How bad will it be?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We will wait for the decision of the Trump Administration. It would appear that it will occur in the early morning tomorrow. We will respond appropriately to whatever decision is made. But Australia is prepared. We need to put this in some perspective. When we look at Australia's exports, less than 5% go to the United States. One of the things my Government has done is to diversify our trade relationships. We brought every ASEAN, that is Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, those countries in our region, to Australia last year, the leaders, I hosted them all in Melbourne last March. We are increasing our trade with the region, we're increasing our trade with India, that will grow to be the third largest economy in the world. We have repaired our trading relationship with China. We have engaged constructively there. That's one thing we've done. The other thing we've done, of course, is Buy Australian. We launched, as part of the Budget, our Buy Australian campaign. I did that and backed it up there in Bundaberg. Nothing says Australian like Bundaberg ginger beer. And that's why on the first day of the campaign on Saturday, I was there at the Bundy facility there promoting Australian product. We're going to beef up that activity to make a difference as well. And we'll continue to look at a full range of other measures as well, but we'll wait for the decision tomorrow. But we need to put this in perspective as well. People need to understand that if the US puts tariffs on it doesn't increase prices here. What it does is increase prices in the United States, which is why it is an act of self-harm if they go down this road.
 
ELLEN FANNING: The Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton, says he'd be better positioned to deal with Trump than you would be, and he'll pick a fight any day with Mr Trump. Have a listen to what he had to say. Prime Minister. Let me just get my little information here. Hang on a sec. Here we go, here he is.
 
PETER DUTTON: Ultimately, what people want is a Prime Minister who can stand up for our country. And what they've seen in Anthony Albanese is somebody who doesn't have the strength or the backbone or the will to stand up for our country's interests. He can't stand up to China at the moment.
 
ANDREW CLENNELL: So, you'd have a fight with Donald Trump, would you?
 
PETER DUTTON: If I needed to have a fight with Donald Trump or any other world leader to advance our nation's interests, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
 
ELLEN FANNING: There you go. What's your response to that, PM?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Look, Peter Dutton will always come out with rhetoric, but you look at actions. When he was a senior minister in the government, our trade relationship with China went to zip. We lost some $20 billion of exports. What that meant was less jobs and less activity in Australia, for those people in Queensland who exported products, be it beef, meat, be it a range of other agricultural products, or coal for that matter. What happened was that that relationship went to the point where they couldn't even have any conversation or any contact over the entire three years of the Morrison Government's last term. What I've done is fix relationships around the world, whether it be with ASEAN, whether it be with our Pacific neighbours, who of course have some memory of what Peter Dutton said, joking about them drowning. That's not the way to make friends in our region.
 
ELLEN FANNING: He says he'd pick a fight with Donald Trump. Would you? Would you?
 
PRIME MINISTER: The last time around. Let's get serious here. When Donald Trump imposed tariffs on aluminium and steel, Peter Dutton chose to attack Australia rather than stand up to Donald Trump. He had a choice of standing up for Australia's national interest and he didn't. He didn't. He refused to do so. And now that there was a bit of a backlash, even from some on his own side about that, he's changed some of his rhetorical position.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Well, I mean, Mr Turnbull has said something similar as well. We need to get off our knees. I mean, the question is, would you pick a fight with Donald Trump? Would you be willing to do it and do you think it would be a useful thing to do?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We will stand up for Australia's national interest. I don't take these issues as personal with President Trump. That's not the way that you get diplomatic action, and you get engagement between nations. What I will do is stand up for Australia's national interests, as I did after the decision on aluminium and steel, and as I will if there are any decisions made against Australia's national interest. And that is why we have refused in the negotiations that we have had with the United States, we have refused to compromise or negotiate on Australia's national interest, whether that is keeping the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, keeping our biosecurity rules that are so important for Australia's agricultural products, albeit our Media Bargaining Code as well. All of those issues, we have stood up to the United States and said they are not up for negotiation. Now, Peter Dutton isn't a part of those discussions. And when he had a chance to stand up for Australia's national interest last time, he chose to stand up with President Trump at that time.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Ok, and finally on this point, will we take the United States to the World Trade Organisation for a breach of Free Trade Agreement and the rules of free trade in the world if they impose these further tariffs?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we won't pre-empt what action we will take before any decision is made. That's not a very sensible thing for us to do. What we will do, though, is await a decision. If a decision is made that is not in our interest, we will stand up for Australia's national interest as we always will.
 
ELLEN FANNING: And finally, Prime Minister Peter Dutton's also expressed dissatisfaction with the ABC's coverage of flooding in South West Queensland. He said, and I quote, “there are a lot of regional services for the ABC which I think are underdone” he says “we were out in Western Queensland just yesterday talking about his campaign, looking at the devastation of the floods and the ABC could be a much more integral part of that community. But just having it based in Sydney or just based in Melbourne is not helping people in outer metro or regional areas.” Do you share those concerns?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm a supporter of the ABC and the role that it plays during emergency periods. I know that in the flooding that has occurred, historically, wherever it's been in Australia, the ABC has played an important role. And I noticed that today, on top of arguing on Monday night there that we didn't need an Education Department because the Federal Government doesn't run schools, was how the argument went, even though we fund schools, even though we fund TAFE and we fund universities and have a major role in education. The next day he said that maybe we don't need a Health Department because we don't fund hospitals. So, we don't know why you need all these bureaucrats in the Health Department. He must have a very short memory of what went on during COVID. And then of course, this morning he went on ABC radio here in Melbourne and could not deny that there will be cuts to the ABC again. Tony Abbott, before he got elected as the last Liberal to come into office from opposition, said there'd be no cuts to health, no cuts to education, no cuts to the ABC. It appears that Peter Dutton is making it very clear that there will be cuts to health, cuts to education and cuts to the ABC because he's got to find $600 billion for his nuclear reactor plan.

ELLEN FANNING: Prime Minister, thank you so much for the time. When will we see you in Brisbane again?
 
PRIME MINISTER: You'll see me very soon, in coming days. I will be travelling around. I've now been to seven of the eight states and territories and it's only day six of the campaign.
 
ELLEN FANNING: Alright, thank you so much, Prime Minister, great to talk to you. We'd appreciate an interview with Mr Dutton of the same length and duration and we throw that offer out him as well as we bid you farewell. Thanks again, PM.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Ellen. Well, given Mr Dutton's approach towards the ABC, you know, don't hold your breath.

ENDS