SUBJECTS: Daniel Andrews; Historical rape allegation made against a Cabinet minister; workplace culture in Parliament House; gender pay gap; vaccine rollout; state borders; international borders; quarantine; Federal Government handing over responsibility to the states; Royal Family.

DEE DEE DUNLEAVY, HOST: Good afternoon.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good afternoon. Good to be with you again.

DUNLEAVY: Thank you. I’m very happy to have you back again. Have you heard how Daniel Andrews is doing? He had a bad fall, went to hospital, had some x-rays. What’s the latest you’ve heard on his condition?

ALBANESE: I haven’t, I’ve got to say. But I just wish him all the best. It is just a bit of a reminder that politicians are human beings and we have falls and accidents. I had a big car accident in January. And I think that we all wish him the best. I’m sure even his political opponents wish him the best of health.

DUNLEAVY: Absolutely they do. Yes, I believe they have expressed that publicly. Okay, let’s start with the allegations of rape levelled against the Attorney-General, Christian Porter. He’s addressed those. Julie Bishop was on the 7:30 Report speaking just about the culture in Canberra. And she spoke about this group of men, I won’t use the terminology she did just for decency’s sake. But basically, she was saying there were men in Canberra who were trying to thwart her aspirations. And she said, well, they failed because she made it to be Foreign Minister, that was his goal. Do you think this is a culture that’s confined just to the Liberal Party?

ALBANESE: Look, we can all do better. But I do think that it makes a difference for the makeup of any organisation. The Labor Party is made up now of 47 per cent women. If we had have done better in the last election, we would have been 50-50. My Shadow Cabinet is 12 men and 12 women. And that does make a difference to culture. The fact that this group had a three-word title they gave themselves, beginning with the word big, is, I think, quite shocking. I’m not saying the Labor Party is perfect, far from it. But I cannot imagine a group in the Labor Party calling themselves that. 

DUNLEAVY: Unless you want to tack the word ‘head’ on to the end of it and that sort of levels it out a little bit, doesn’t it? We don’t need to elaborate any more than that. Just regarding the allegations made against Christian Porter, the South Australian Coroner is still deciding whether to hold a coronial inquest. Do you think that should happen?

ALBANESE: Certainly at the moment, what we’ve had is allegations from a woman who took her own life. They haven’t been able to have been examined due to that fact that she is not in a position to give evidence. So the allegations really haven’t been examined at all. And that’s why we’re seeing it explored through the media and why there remains issues that are unresolved. Now, it is very difficult for Christian Porter. It’s important that any process starts with the presumption of innocence. But I personally think, and Julie Bishop agreed last night, that there does need to be some resolution of this. Christian Porter is the first law officer of the land. And the idea that we can just unsee the allegations and unhear them, particularly in the context of the fact that neither the Prime Minister nor Christian Porter has read what the woman wrote down that was sent to the Prime Minister, I think, means that this remains an issue.

DUNLEAVY: Did you feel that Christian Porter was sincere when he spoke last week?

ALBANESE: I’m not in a position to judge. I was certainly sympathetic with the difficulty that he found himself in. I am not aware of the facts, obviously, of something that happened a considerable period of time ago, so I am not in a position to judge. But it was obviously a very tough press conference for him to give personally. And I think any human being watching that would sort of acknowledge that.

DUNLEAVY: I feel as though the inquiry by the South Australian Coroner is a separate thing to this inquiry that’s being called for in Canberra. Police dropped their investigation in New South Wales saying they had no further evidence to proceed with. So this inquiry would be a separate thing, more, I think, looking at the fact of whether Christian Porter is fit to hold office. In calling for that investigation, which I know you’ve done, have you considered the family’s wishes at all in that?

ALBANESE: Yes. And they’ve called for an inquiry. They want information here. And of course, there are lots of precedents. Of course, Dyson Heydon, there was an inquiry into the High Court and what occurred around allegations against him. And of course, he presided over an inquiry over whether Julia Gillard, the arrangements of her then partner, regarding a renovation to a home, decades earlier, before she got into Parliament and before and after she had served as Prime Minister. This current Government had inquiries into three Labor leaders in terms of Kevin Rudd had to give evidence before an inquiry, Bill Shorten before the Trade Union Royal Commission. There are lots of looking at issues to ascertain facts. And here I think the fact that the Government seems to think that Christian Porter can just return to the position of Attorney-General, the first law officer of the land, without any examination because there hasn’t been one up to this point of the allegations, is, I think, just unrealistic. Common sense tells you that in order to move on, there’s got to be some form of examination. Now, whether that is a full coronial inquiry that takes into account the circumstances of the woman’s death and is able to look at what the motivation would have been and look at some of those issues, it’s unclear whether a coronial inquiry would be able to look at that or whether there’s a need for a separate inquiry. I think at the moment, Australians are unsatisfied given the Prime Minister and Christian Porter say they haven’t even read the allegations. 

DUNLEAVY: I wonder if they were provided with the allegations, though.

ALBANESE: It was sent to the Prime Minister.

DUNLEAVY: Okay. Let’s move on to your announcement yesterday, the International Women’s Day was probably the right choice of day if you’re discussing workplace issues and the gender pay gap here in Australia, which is obviously going to be an issue that will feature in the Federal election, should it be held this year, which is looking likely. I wonder whether this is perhaps oversimplifying things. Companies pay for experience and for performance. Is gender the correct measure in which to decide what a person should be paid?

ALBANESE: Well, it shouldn’t be. But the evidence is that in too many cases it is. The fact that there’s a gender pay gap of more than 13 per cent in Australia and that it is not really closing. The fact that we have pay secrecy clauses whereby people aren’t able to say how much they paid and what their conditions are. The fact that companies report the gender pay differences to the Federal Government body, but it’s actually not published. So we’re not asking for additional work here, it is just a matter of making sure that there’s transparency there. And the fact that when you look at those professions which are dominated by women, childcare, aged care, cleaning, social and community services, in so many cases, they’re underpaid. The Social and Community Services Award was changed in 2012 to take into account those matters but that hasn’t been extended since that. There hasn’t been any consideration. So there was a case of childcare workers, for example, that didn’t take that into account. And so what we’re saying is that needs to be changed as well. And in addition, there needs to be 10 days of domestic and family violence leave available across the board. Now, that occurs for a range of professions across many public service professions, but also the big four banks, Telstra, Qantas, Virgin, a range of companies are doing that. But we think that that should be across the board. And of course, this also fits in with our cheaper childcare policy as well, which is about women being able to participate in the workforce and about boosting productivity as well.

DUNLEAVY: With the vaccine rollout, there are some GPs complaining that it’s going to leave them out-of-pocket. I think some say they may have to put on extra nurses or hire extra space in order to be able to administer the vaccinations. I just want to go to something that happened the other day, a lot of doctors and elderly patients haven’t had the vaccine yet. And yet, we had Julia Gillard and Greg Hunt jumping in to get their vaccines and people were accusing them of queue jumping. What was your thought about that?

ALBANESE: All the evidence is that people in public life receive the vaccine, it helps encourage others. And Greg Hunt as the Health Minister certainly approached us about getting the vaccine. I’ve had the first shot of the vaccine, as has Scott Morrison. And the evidence is that it helps to build public confidence. That’s one of the things that we should do. And I know Julia rang me on Saturday to tell me that she was doing it the next day and she’s doing it out of her concern for the healthcare and doing the right thing.

DUNLEAVY: Some people are very impatient. What do you think about the speed of the rollout?

ALBANESE: Well, the Prime Minister had targets for the rollout that are unlikely to be made at this stage by the end of March. It is important that it be rolled out as soon as possible when there has been concern about people at aged care facilities, for example, relatives coming to see a loved one get their vaccination and no one showing up. So I do think the Federal Government does have a responsibility to make sure that they get it right.

DUNLEAVY: Anthony Albanese, the Federal Leader of the Australian Labor Party, is with me. We’re discussing the news of the day. Happy to take your calls. 9690 0693. Anthony, Mark has a question for you. Hi, Mark.

MARK, CALLER: Thanks for joining us, Opposition Leader.

ALBANESE: G’day, Mark.

MARK: With the Christian Porter thing, it has been to the police. The police have said in no uncertain terms, no case to answer, nothing to go forward on, no charges to be laid and no trial to be had. And it seems to me that you and Tanya Plibersek have been chasing it down the street, having found your little sex scandal, and you are going to drive this guy insane. And we have the rule of law in this country. We have the rule of law. And the law says that the police are the only people that are allowed to investigate these things. And once they’ve investigated, that is that. And it just seems so ridiculous that this is a trial by media, and you are running the show.

ALBANESE: Well, you must have been beside yourself when the inquiry occurred against Julia Gillard over a renovation of a home, frankly, that occurred. And what we have here is exactly the media examining this because there is no investigation. What the police have found is that they can’t find anything, they can’t investigate. That is the point here. Because the woman took her own life and isn’t in a position to give a statement. So we have this allegation out there and it hasn’t been examined. I haven’t sought to politicise it. And what we have is in a range of corporations where there’s an allegation, in the High Court of Australia, we had, under this Government, that process established. And so there is nothing unusual about this happening in the private sector. There is nothing unusual about it happening in the court system.

DUNLEAVY: I think what Mark, if I can get where he’s coming from, is people are wondering what is to come of these? Is it just to decide whether Christian Porter is fit to hold office? Because where can you take it to? At the very heart of it, we’ve got two people who were there and involved or not involved, depending on who you believe. And there’s only one person who’s surviving. So what can come of this inquiry given that the only person who can tell you what happened who says nothing happened is Christian Porter? And he says nothing happened. So where can the inquiry go? Isn’t it just a waste of everybody’s time?

ALBANESE: Well, that is a difficulty here. But it can’t be just unheard. And at the moment, what we have is circumstances whereby Christian Porter, the idea that he can just return to being first law of the land and to be Attorney-General, we just move on without any examination of this, is, I think, it isn’t just Labor saying this, there’s range of eminent people in the legal professions, former High Court judges as well as politicians on the other side of politics as well, including sitting members of the Coalition and former leaders like Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop, saying that there needs to be some process of examination here.

DUNLEAVY: Had you ever heard any talk of this alleged incident before it came up most recently in the media?

ALBANESE: Yes.

DUNLEAVY: Okay. For how long

ALBANESE: Since last year in the lead-up to the Four Corners program.

DUNLEAVY: How did that come up? How did you first hear about it?

ALBANESE: That is one of the things I find difficult to comprehend is that people were talking about it in Parliament House last year in the lead-up to the Four Corners program that this was one of the issues that was being examined. And I find it difficult to think that Christian Porter and Scott Morrison hadn’t heard this.

DUNLEAVY: Kevin has called in. Hi, Kevin.

KEVIN, CALLER: Hello there. How are you?

DUNLEAVY: Good, thanks.

KEVIN: Just wanted to ask Mr Albanese back on the disclosure of the pay. I wanted to know whether it’s only across genders or does it also work within gender? And what I wanted to know was, in my industry, I pay some of my very valuable staff way above the award rate because of the job that they do. And if we disclose it, and I employ mostly females, if they have to disclose the wages, I’m wondering whether that puts me under pressure not to pay the much better employee higher because they may have to disclose that to the people that are not doing the job very well.

ALBANESE: Thanks for the question. On the first one, what you would raise is not individuals, it is the reporting that now goes if a company employs more than 250 people, you would have both managerial and non-managerial roles, two criteria. And just the macro figures. You wouldn’t be able to tell from the documentation precisely how much any individual is paid. On second issue, the problem there is that an individual now as part of agreements, it can be a breach if they disclose their own salary. So no one is suggesting that you would have to disclose how much you were paying any particular individual. And if you’re paying individuals who are doing particularly good work, that’s entirely appropriate that occur. But at the moment, there are secrecy clauses in contracts that mean people can’t say how much they are being paid. And that really is not appropriate. So it would be up to the individual, it would still be up to them whether they disclose how much they are being paid or not.

DUNLEAVY: Mr Albanese, the Opposition Leader here in Victoria, Michael O’Brien, he wants Melbourne to start taking international flights again, immediately. I think it was February 13th when we cut off international flights to come in here. We certainly need to start looking at getting our international students back. We’ve got a shortage of seasonal workers here in Victoria. It’s really gone on such a long time. Do you agree that we should start opening up our airport to international arrivals?

ALBANESE: Well, he should ring Scott Morrison. Because clearly, the Federal Government is responsible for quarantine. The idea that the Federal Government has abrogated its responsibility for international travellers into Australia, I found, just quite extraordinary, frankly, during this period.

DUNLEAVY: Leaders from other states are trying to pressure Daniel Andrews into opening our airport. It’s Daniel Andrews who is resisting it and saying he’s waiting on the best health advice.

ALBANESE: It is appropriate that he listen to health advice. But the Federal Government is responsible for our international borders and is responsible in our Constitution for quarantine.

DUNLEAVY: But other states are taking in international arrivals and Melbourne is still refusing to do so, I’m not sure if the exact reason, I guess because we don’t trust our contact tracing.

ALBANESE: The Federal Government is responsible here. And what we’ve seen during this period is Scott Morrison handover that responsibility to the states. And I think that is unfortunate. Quite clearly, it is very exclusively the control on the Federal Government that controls immigration, controls customs, it controls all of those issues. All the horses that came in for the Melbourne Cup last year were brought in under Federal quarantine which is a Federal responsibility.

DUNLEAVY: Are you saying that Scott Morrison should order Daniel Andrews to open our airports to international travellers?

ALBANESE: Scott Morrison is in charge of the airports. The airports are actually federally owned. They are leased out. The Federal responsibility is there in airports for immigration and customs. The Federal Government is responsible for quarantine. It is very clear. This argument is handing over responsibility to the states. The states, not surprisingly, have been cautious. But the Federal Government should have got Australians home as the Prime Minister stated he would before Christmas last year. And what that would have done is enable us to do things like bringing in students that are required. It is a problem that people are unable to come into Australia at this point in time.

DUNLEAVY: I still don’t think that’s correct. I think the Federal Government has been asking the Premier to reopen our hotel quarantine program.

ALBANESE: I hate to quote Dennis Denuto but it’s the vibe, it’s the Constitution. It absolutely is a Federal Government responsibility. And if you think back to previous Coalition governments, the idea, remember a notable slogan about, ‘We will control who comes into Australia’. Well, it has been handed over, all the difficult issues have been handed over to the states. And I think that’s a critical issue. It’s not surprising that Daniel Andrews will continue to listen the health advice, but I do think with regard to quarantine and bringing people into Australia, we saw just last week, for example, the Howard Springs facility in the Northern Territory expanded significantly. There’s no reason why that couldn’t have been done many months ago. And indeed, Labor was calling for just that.

DUNLEAVY: Just a quick one before I let you go, Harry and Meghan, it was the talk of the entire planet last night, the interview with Oprah. I don’t know whether you had time to watch it, but 29 per cent of people surveyed in the UK were sympathetic towards the couple and 56 per cent were unsympathetic. Which way do you fall?

ALBANESE: I think that it exposed some real issues with the Royal Family. I think family disputes can be really difficult. And I’m sympathetic with the way that they find themselves in such a public glare and, I guess, hope for the sake of the family. I am a republican. This reinforces my views about that. But I also am sympathetic towards the position that Meghan found herself in as an outsider coming into a culture that obviously was a difficult one for her to deal with.

DUNLEAVY: Thank you very much for your time today. Anthony Albanese, Leader of the Australian Labor Party.

ENDS