SUBJECTS:  Morrison-Joyce Government inaction on climate change; green hydrogen; jobs opportunities for Tasmania; AUKUS;  National Reconstruction Fund; Tasmania’s lockdown; hotel quarantine breaches;  local manufacture of mRNA vaccines Tasmanian Labor.
 
MIKE O’LOUGHLIN, HOST: Thanks for your time this morning. Welcome back to Tasmania Talks, firstly.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: Good morning. Good to be with you.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Now let's start with the upcoming federal election, due May 21, 2022. But you’re predicting we're going to the polls as early as December. Is that because of the Prime Minister coming back in from COP26, saying that he’ll probably call it for December 11?
 
ALBANESE: Well, it's very possible that that might happen, so we have to be prepared. This is a Government, as we've seen from the shambles this week, that's falling apart. I'm not sure they'll make it to March or May with the way that they're going. They can't come up with a position. Mr Morrison's going to the Glasgow conference and, at the moment, the Government don't even have a position to take to that conference. It's quite extraordinary.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Well, it is actually, when you when you consider that. And I totally agree with you. Even though apparently, allegedly, Barnaby Joyce will be on track with the Nationals to secure something for them by the end of today, I was told, and possibly, if not tomorrow, to secure their 2050 zero emissions. But it does seem a little farcical, doesn’t it?
 
ALBANESE: I’m sure the pantomime will conclude at some stage and they'll pop out and say ‘Yes, we support net zero by 2050’. But who would take them seriously after the show that we've seen in the last days, weeks, months and years? The problem for Scott Morrison is there’s little thing called the internet that records him making fun of electric vehicles saying they’ll end the weekend, that records him saying that renewable energy targets are nuts, that records him disparaging action on climate change and saying it'll destroy jobs and destroy the economy. And we know that none of that is true. And the problem for Scott Morrison is that, in spite of his lack of leadership, the private sector, the business community, and every state and territory government, Labor and Liberal, have just given up and they’ve just moved on. They’re taking action themselves, including the Tasmanian Government.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: It is interesting, though, the Prime Minister promised the Government's carbon neutrality plan would actually protect regional Australians. And it’s challenged Labor over its delays filling out its own 2030 emissions reduction targets. Because you’d be aware obviously that Labor hasn’t yet fully identified your 2030 targets, ditching Bill Shorten’s policy to reduce emissions by 45 per cent following the 2019 defeat, I believe. But you’ve said it’ll be more ambitious than the Coalition’s reduction of 26 to 28 per cent. So, what is it?
 
ALBANESE: Well, if you add up all the state and territory government targets, of course, it comes to a figure higher than 26 to 28 per cent. But we've already announced significant policy, including a $20 billion plan for Rewiring the Nation, fixing electricity transmission in this country. Tasmania in particular, of course, could benefit from that through the interconnector and through the work that is capable of expanding there in Tasmania. We need to get that right. We've announced our community batteries plan. We’ve announced New Energy Apprenticeships. We’ve announced a range of policies. There’ll be more to come in the lead up to the election. The target that we took to the last election is the one that we took to the election before that too, in 2015, so you can’t expect, seven years later, to have exactly the same position. We have said that we would wait on two big events that were happening this year. And we were right to do so. One of those, of course, is the change of presidency in the United States with the replacement of Mr Morrison’s friend, Donald Trump, with Joe Biden, who actually is now taking action, climate action, leading the world. That’s changed the whole debate globally. Because we’ve always said that Australia needed to act with the world, not alone, act as part of global action. Because you can’t solve climate change as a single nation. But we have to do our bit and we have to be part of that action as opposed to being a pariah sitting in the corner. And what the Coalition have done is put us in that position for so long.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Talking about COP, I mean it’s great to have this talkfest among the world’s leaders but Russia has come out and said he doesn’t want to attend but he’s willing to rescue Britain from high gas prices and is in no hurry to reach net zero. We know China’s not attending. I mean, these are the biggest abusers and yet they’re not attending. So how do we then get a message across? Is it across as a whole group of smaller countries getting together, waving a big stick?
 
ALBANESE: Well, what you need to be is a part of the action. And last year's conference, the Conference of the Parties are held every year, Australia was sitting in the naughty corner with Saudi Arabia. And the real tragedy is that we have so much to gain, particularly in regional Australia. We can be a renewable energy superpower for the world. We have abundant natural resources of sun and wind and, of course, there in Tasmania, hydro plays such a critical role.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Absolutely.
 
ALBANESE: And we are completely squandering the competitive advantage we have to have renewables drive down energy prices, so we can have high value manufacturing, so we can build things here. That's the vision that I have for the country. And Mr Morrison has been just behind the debate. The absurdity of saying that electric vehicles, you won't be able to tow your caravan and you won't be able to have a weekend, is just ridiculous. And it’s embarrassing for Australia on the international stage. So, while Australia is led by someone who's had that position it’s difficult for us to be critical of other nations. But we should be. China and Russia have to be part of the solution.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Can I just say though, that the demand for oil, coal, natural gas has skyrocketed worldwide. And that's in recent weeks. And also, where if you want to create energy shortages, you look at China and Brazil and to Britain. But the analysts say that, while fossil fuel investment is falling, fossil fuels actually account for most energy and green energy spending isn't growing fast enough to fill the gap. So in order to reduce the world's net carbon emissions to zero by 2050, renewable energy sources must quickly displace oil and other fossil fuels. So how are we going to do that? Are talking green hydrogen? Yet green hydrogen requires a massive amount of electricity, electrolysis, to form the ammonia etc to get the hydrogen.
 
ALBANESE: That’s right. But if you do green hydrogen, the electricity is produced by renewable energy. That’s the point there, the electrolysis process.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: So will we have enough to then cope with the Marinus Link? Will we have enough in Tasmania to cover the green energy, to formulate that, to then send it to Marinus Link to have an excess to send across to the states? That is a reasonable concern.
 
ALBANESE: Look, I'm very confident that Tasmania can achieve this. I met with Andrew Forrest just last week, speaking to him about Bell Bay, and speaking to him he’s very confident about the way forward. And there’s a reason why business have all said they support net zero by 2050, some with much stronger targets than that. There's a reason why. Business is adjusting because it makes sense, because it will improve their bottom line. Economics works. Business is motivated by the bottom line. And the Business Council of Australia, ACCI, the Australian Industry Group, the National Farmers’ Federation, every state and territory government, all these major businesses including BHP, Santos, Rio Tinto, all support net zero by 2050. Rio Tinto have just announced that they want a 50 per cent reduction by 2030. You have this action happening. And it’s happening in spite of the Federal Government. The Federal Government are left behind, they’re complaining about electric vehicles, complaining about the shift that's happening. Change does happen in our world. The role of government is to shape change in the interests of ordinary people, to make sure people are being left behind. And that's what Scott Morrison has done. He's left people behind. We could have had more jobs. If you look at the sort of prospects that we have, the Sun Cable project in the Northern Territory, the largest solar farm in the world will be helping to power around about 20 per cent, they’re hopeful of getting to,
of the Singapore grid, powered from a solar farm located near Tennant Creek. That is an extraordinary proposal. It's one that's real, it’s one that will produce income for Australia, it’s one that will reduce emissions in Singapore but create jobs in Australia. That's the sort of vision that we need. That’s happened in spite of the Federal Government, not because of it.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Do you honestly back, you mentioned the climate leaders’ coalition, and you said Rio Tinto, BHP, Fortescue, the list goes on. There’s also the Race to Zero project, which is held by the Smart Energy Council. So these businesses and these groups, does Labor back them 100 per cent? Will you be going to an election with that as well?
 
ALBANESE: Well, we'll be backing our own policies which will be strong policy, and has been strong policy up to now. We’ve spoken with many of those businesses to develop our framework. People like Mike Cannon-Brookes, Andrew Forrest and others in the private sector who are working hard. Jennifer Westacott and the Business Council of Australia have turned around their position. Why? Because the facts are there and they need to do so. We need to make sure that we prioritise good jobs. The way to prioritise good jobs and job creation is by making sure that the clean energy revolution that’s happening around the world is one that we ensure acts in Australia’s interest. And that’s what I’m determined to do. To make sure we have an Australian Government that leads, that is in a position to ensure that Australia benefits in terms of jobs and economic growth from embracing science rather than rejecting it. We embraced science during the COVID pandemic and, as a result, Australia has been better off than most countries that say, questioned the science and whether COVID was real. Australians have embraced that. We need to make sure that we embrace it when it comes to climate action as well.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Now, I was reading from Geoff Chambers, that Labor and your good self will make climate change a hallmark of the US-Australia alliance if you win the next election and actually push for an ambitious reshaping of the ANZUS relationship amid, you know, what they’re talking about in the Indo-Pacific region. So how will that change? What will you change? And you’ve spoken about US President Joe Biden. So, what does Labor wish to change in relation to AUKUS or ANZUS?
 
ALBANESE: Well, climate change is a national security issue. And one of the things that we need to do, now that we’re in a global framework whereby we have strategic competition, including in the Indo-Pacific, is made sure that Australia and its allies are reaching out to the region. Projects like the Sun Cable project that I spoke about. We can also make sure that we deal positively with countries in our region like Indonesia, like our Pacific neighbours as well. Our Pacific neighbours are particularly vulnerable, places like Tuvalu, to the impact of rising sea levels coming from climate change. They’re very conscious about it. And one way that we advance diplomacy in the region, and improve our national security position in the region, is by taking climate change seriously. And we would want to work with our US partners in doing that.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: And as for job security, when it all comes down to it, you have stated in an opinion piece that you'll cut power prices to take pressure off employers, reducing your overhead so they can create jobs across the economy. Is that going to be a major staple of your going to the election?  Because you’ve said the Labor government will create that $15 billion National Reconstruction Fund?
 
ALBANESE: That's right. Our National Reconstruction Fund is about building back stronger, making sure that we take advantage of the opportunities which are there. One of the first visits I made as Labor Leader was to the Rio Tinto aluminium refinery at Gladstone. And they're looking at transitioning to use of solar energy to power that, so that they can have more production by lowering their energy costs. I attended a glass and aluminium factory last week - $250,000 reduction in their overhead, in their energy bill, as a result of being solar-powered, making an enormous difference to the viability and competitiveness of that plant. They’re the sort of ways that we create more jobs here in Australia. And people in our outer suburbs and in our regions stand to really benefit from this.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: You also want to rebuild the training system. I was reading in your piece, they're creating a new organisation, yet another one, called Jobs and Skills Australia, to actually work with states, employers and trade unions to make sure we’re teaching the right skills. What about TAFE? And what about the other training organisation? Is this just basically revamping?
 
ALBANESE: No, this is to assist TAFE, that we see as the centre of the training system. There's no replacement for TAFE. What we need to do, though, is stop the cuts. This Government has cut $3 billion from TAFE, we’ve seen apprenticeships more than halve under this Government’s watch. Jobs and Skills Australia will do for planning for the labour market what Infrastructure Australia is designed to do for (inaudible) infrastructure projects. That is, to be a body that brings together government and the private sector to identify where the jobs will be in five, 10, 15 years’ time, make sure we train Australian for those jobs. There are two things you can do. You will have heard some of the cries from some in the business community in recent times, speaking about labour shortages, saying we need to import temporary labour. Well, temporary labour will continue to play a role. But it is far better to have permanent work for Australians. There are so many Australians who are underemployed or unemployed. Some two million. What we need to do is to make sure that, as we plan and create the jobs of the future, Australians can fill them. And that will be the role of Jobs and Skill Australia, a body that will provide those recommendations, that will make that it works with state and territory governments, that TAFE is offering the right courses, to make sure that we don’t have a circumstance whereby we don’t have enough chefs, we don’t have enough bricklayers. There’s so many jobs that have real shortages, real skill shortages. We have lawyers doing other jobs because there’s an oversupply in some areas. So we need to actually plan for that, in the interests not just of young people but of people being retrained as the economy changes as well, to make sure that they’re not just left behind as change occurs.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: But are you secretly planning a carbon tax?
 
ALBANESE: No.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Categorically?
 
ALBANESE: Absolutely. Look, the issue of a price on carbon was one that sought to change the price, to change the market. The truth is now that renewables are the cheapest form of new energy. There’s nothing to stop a coal-fired power station being built in this country today. There’s no law against it. The private sector can do it as long as it meets environmental approvals. But guess what? There’s not one under production. And why is that? Because the market is speaking. In spite of this Government’s rhetoric, in spite of the fact that they’ve used taxpayer funds to support the proponents of a new coal-fired power plan in Queensland, it’ll never be built. It’ll never be built. Because the market spoken.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: We’ll just move on to good old COVID. And it was lovely not to talk about it for a while, but there you go. Southern Tasmania, as you probably know, has only this week come out of a snap three-day lockdown after a COVID-positive bloke breached hotel quarantine. Was this the right move? And tell me your thoughts on hotel quarantine. Because we certainly, as much as the majority is great, the ones that come out, do the wrong thing, and here we go, we’ve got a COVID-positive bloke who just walks out the door.
 
ALBANESE: Well every breach of hotel quarantine has had real consequences. And there have been more than 20 of them. And the consequences have led to lockdowns. The entire lockdown in New South Wales and Victoria came from a breach of a driver taking someone to hotel quarantine. And the system broke down. That’s why we said early on there should be purpose-built quarantine. And the Federal Government continue to object to that, like they objected to vaccine supply being a priority, saying that it wasn’t a race. The truth is, this Government failed in two big areas that have led to lockdowns. A failure to build purpose-built quarantine and a failure to secure enough vaccine supply soon enough.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: What about, we’ve just reached 70 per cent of our population over 16 fully vaccinated, which at least 90 per cent over 71. And I personally believe our state Liberal Government, undefeated Government, is doing a very, very good job. I look at the mainland and it is scary, the result. I mean, obviously the medical authorities are saying, OK, in Victoria, yes, we can come out of lockdown. And they do desperately need to, but with still high rates of cases. But we’ve got a booster program on the way and hopefully that’ll start up soon. And I know New South Wales, I believe, is going to start making, putting together a high-tech research allowing mRNA and RNA drugs and vaccines to be created locally.
 
ALBANESE: Yeah, absolutely. And we need to manufacture mRNA vaccines here. I produced a four-point plan last year at this time and it included making sure that we had supply of vaccines, making sure we had purpose-built quarantine, making sure we had an appropriate public information campaign to promote people being vaccinated, but the fourth point was to manufacture mRNA vaccines here. What we’ve seen with the different strains of COVID, including the Delta strain, is it changed. It’s expected that that could happen again and we’ll have different strains. And we need to develop that technology, be more self-reliant. It’s a part of, one of the themes that I’ll be taking to the election is I want a future made in Australia. I want us to be more self-reliant, us to manufacture more things here. And part of that is manufacturing mRNA vaccines.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Can I just then, quickly, I know you’ve got to go but, being the boss, let’s talk about state Labor. And I know that Rebecca White has a headline, ‘Infighting Must End’. I mean, it’s still on its way, with one of her local colleagues saying Rebecca White is so desperate for relevance that she’s willing to politicise the pandemic, and that's a quote from the paper. So I’m just thinking, is there going to be someone coming in here, yourself or someone from the federal Labor Party, and saying ‘OK, here’s what, well, let’s have a restart’?
 
ALBANESE: Look, I think there has been that restart with the return of Rebecca White, who’s a friend of mine and has been an outstanding political leader to the leadership in Tasmania. There have been some difficult times for Tasmanian Labor. But I’m very proud of the federal team that is there – Julie Collins and Brian Mitchell and our Senate team – doing a fantastic job. I’m very confident that we can be more successful at the next election. Obviously, Bass and Braddon are important seats for us that we’ll be visiting and targeting, as I have been before. I love Tasmania. And I think that Tasmania is being left behind by the Federal Government at the moment and they don’t seem to regard it as a priority. It will be a priority for me. It always has been. I’ve always been able to support important infrastructure projects in Tasmania, including the Midland Highway and the rail revitalisation plan and the upgrades to places like Bellerive and Aurora, it was called when we upgraded it, I think, the ground at Lonnie is called something different now, the upgrade to Burnie Port. All of these projects are important. And Tasmania also has a lot to benefit from the new economy. Places like Bell Bay can be major employment generators in the future. You have, as well, a lot to benefit from a shipping policy that says that with the Australian flag, there should be Australian ships with Australian seafarers working on them. You’ve got the Maritime College there, which is a world-class facility which we supported the upgrade of as well. So I look forward to campaigning in Tasmania. I look forward to Tasmanians being an important part of a government I hope to lead next year. I just want to add a couple of good Tasmanians to our team.
 
O’LOUGHLIN: Well, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you. I know I’ve kept you a little longer than normal, but it is a pleasure. Anthony Albanese, Federal Labor Leader, Leader of the Australian Labor Party. Thank you for your time. We’ll talk again soon, I hope.
 
ALBANESE: Thanks very much. My pleasure.
 
ENDS