SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome to 7.30.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, Sarah.
 
FERGUSON: You released your costings today after lots of criticism of your spendathon, showing that it only had a small impact on the Budget. But at the same time credit ratings agency Standard and Poors is saying that your government spending may be putting Australia's AAA credit rating at risk, especially that your off-budget spending is hiding the true, as they say, deterioration of the budget. Just for the viewers, can you explain what off-budget measures are and exactly how much money have you got in those measures?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, off-budget measures are funds such as the National Reconstruction Fund, which invest but produce a return. It can only be off-budget if essentially it's going to produce a profit for the government.
 
FERGUSON: It includes the Whyalla Steelworks and the NBN. These aren't profit generating yet, are they?
 
PRIME MINISTER: But they will be. And Finance has to make that assessment that you get a return in order for it to be off-budget.
 
FERGUSON: What about student debt? How does that generate a return when you've just taken such a large chunk off it?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a benefit. That's about intergenerational equity, Sarah. Young people feel like they're not getting a fair crack and fair enough. And as part of our cost of living measures, we wanted to make sure that we could deliver for them, and in particular, they'll be the big beneficiaries. 3 million Australians will get an average of $5,500 cut from their debt.
 
FERGUSON: But the question is, why is it sitting in an off-budget measure?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what it is, is making a difference by making sure that we reduce that debt. We make no apologies for that, Sarah. One of the differences at this election campaign is that the Coalition, identifying that there are cost of living pressures, identifying issues, but not coming up with any solutions. What we've done is, quite clearly, through a range of measures, identify where improvements can be made, whether it's rental assistance for people who are renting, cutting student debt for students, Free TAFE to give people the option forward.
 
FERGUSON: But all of this adds up to what Standard and Poor's are saying is that there's too much spending and it's putting Australia's AAA credit rating at risk.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's no suggestion, frankly – the AAA credit rating is there. And what we've done, they must have been beside themselves whoever wrote that particular report, when the Coalition left us with a $78 billion deficit, we turned that into a $22 billion surplus. We followed that up with a $15 billion surplus. We, of course, have halved the deficit this year and we've had three lots of costings. We had a Budget on March 25, then we had the Pre-election Fiscal Outlook figures, and today we've released all of our costings.
 
Now the Coalition can't say where the $600 billion for nuclear power plants are going to come from –
 
FERGUSON: Alright, well, let's wait and let's wait and put that let's wait and put that question to the Opposition –
 
PRIME MINISTER: Good luck getting Peter Dutton on the show given that yesterday he described the ABC as the ‘hate media.’
 
FERGUSON: Now, sometimes throwaway lines during a campaign come to take on deeper meaning, perhaps even than intended. So, you used the phrase ‘kindness is not a weakness’ in the second Leaders’ Debate. What do you mean by that?
 
PRIME MINISTER: What I mean by that, Sarah, is that Peter Dutton seems to think that bluster and yelling and interrupting and being rude is strength. It's not. One of the things that you have to do as a leader is show kindness and compassion to the vulnerable. That's part of who I am. It's part of my character. That's not weakness. Strength is having the capacity to go to the National Press Club, as I did, and say we are going to change the tax cuts that have been legislated because we don't want some people to be left behind –
 
FERGUSON: Come back to –
 
PRIME MINISTER: That’s strength.
 
FERGUSON: Come back, let's come back to strength. Because you gave that answer in response to a question, ‘do we need more of a hard man as a leader?’ And of course, that is how Peter Dutton has been styling himself. So, my question is, has Donald Trump come to your aid during this campaign, darkening the brand of hardmen leaders?
 
PRIME MINISTER: I think Peter Dutton has darkened his own brand. He has made a career out of promoting division, about punching down on vulnerable people, about seeking to divide the community, engaging in culture wars. What I've done is to try and bring people together. That's a part of who I am.
 
FERGUSON: Let me ask you a question about related to the culture wars on the Channel 7 debate last night, you seemed half-hearted in your response to the question about whether or not Welcome to Country ceremonies should continue. Are you getting feedback that suggests some voters that Welcomes to Country are unpopular among some voters?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, look, Peter Dutton wants to engage –
 
FERGUSON: The question is about your answer, sir, if I may.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'll tell you what my response is to that. I don't want to engage in fighting culture wars. I want to engage in fighting for the Australian people –
 
FERGUSON: But your response last night, sorry to interrupt you, but it was half hearted. In response to that question.
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's what I'm engaged in. It is something that to me is a matter of just courtesy, that it's up to organisations whether they have it or not. I find it uplifting and a matter of good manners.
 
FERGUSON: But you said last night, you said, ‘from my perspective for major events, it is of course a sign of respect.’ Why doesn't a minor event justify a Welcoming to Country?
 
PRIME MINISTER: They were talking about, the term that was used just before then, if you go back, was at the ‘beginning of every working day’. So, that was the term. So, it's up to organisations to do that. But, Sarah, this is a complete distraction by Peter Dutton, who wants to talk about anything but cost of living, anything but the $600 billion of cuts that he will need to pay for his nuclear plan. What I'm concerned about is the real issues confronting Australians, including the real issues confronting Indigenous Australians or First Nations people is how do we close the gap on education, on health, on housing. That's what I'm concerned with.
 
FERGUSON: So, you weren't half hearted?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No.
 
FERGUSON: Ok, let's come back to cost of living because with a week to go, while the polls are looking positive for you, at the same time the pent-up anger of families whose household wealth has gone backwards tells a different story. Many of those stressed families are living in marginal electorates. If you lose this election, will it be because of them?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Cost of living pressures are real, Sarah. That's why we've acted. That's why we've addressed income tax cuts for every taxpayer, energy bill relief, cheaper child care, Free TAFE. All of these measures, including the measures that were put in Medicare to make sure 1.3 million Australians have been able to go to an Urgent Care Clinic, get the care they needed with just their Medicare card. Cheaper medicines, down to $25. All of these measures have been aimed at addressing costs of living pressures which we know are real. We've been dealing with the biggest inflation spike since the 1980s and the biggest energy crisis since the 1960s –
 
FERGUSON: And you brought in a series of cost of living measures, but –
 
PRIME MINISTER: All of which were opposed by Peter Dutton and the Coalition –
 
FERGUSON: In spite of that, though, there's been an historically large – I think it's 7.6% – fall in living standards since you came to office. Claims that voters are now seeing everywhere in ads. That's a true figure, isn't it? Not an invention of Mr Dutton?
 
PRIME MINISTER: What has happened globally, Sarah –
 
FERGUSON: But in terms of what's happened to Australian households.
 
PRIME MINISTER: What has happened globally is that many households are under financial pressure. But we are turning the corner. We have inflation down to 2.4%. We have – wages have grown the last five quarters. We have real per capita income has increased. The latest figures. We'll have inflation figures out in a couple of days. We'll see where they're at. But our task has been as a Labor government has been how do we get inflation down without hurting people, without having that spike in unemployment, which some economists, I'm sure you could have had on this program, would tell you you need to drive unemployment up. Well, that's not the Labor way. We've got unemployment which is low still at 4.1%. We have real wages growing and we've got inflation down. Interest rates started to rise before the last election. Now they have started to fall.
 
FERGUSON: You tried to walk away from the promise that you made at the last election in relation to electricity bills coming down by $275. Can you say now that when the taxpayer funded bill relief runs out at the end of the year that electricity prices will be lower? What we're doing is working through the mess that we inherited. Sarah –
 
FERGUSON: That's the question about, at the end of this year, whether electricity prices will be lower?
 
PRIME MINISTER: There's a context here, Sarah, and the context is that 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations announced their closure under the former Government. They had 23 policies. They didn't land a single one of them. What we have been addressing is how you increase stability, increase supply. We have approved enough renewable energy projects to power 10 million homes.
 
FERGUSON: So, do you now regret that statement that you made, notwithstanding the complexity of –
 
PRIME MINISTER: That was the Reputex modelling that occurred –
 
FERGUSON: And that was also that you repeated.
 
PRIME MINISTER: And that was also before –
 
FERGUSON: Except you cannot push it away to Reputex. That was the figure that you used.
 
PRIME MINISTER: That was before three things, Sarah. As you know, as you might recall, Angus Taylor hid a spike in the rate of energy prices by moving a special regulation so it was declared after the election.
 
FERGUSON: Here's a simple question that you hadn't said it? Do you wish you hadn't made that prediction?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, Sarah, you cannot look back. What you can do is look forward. And what you do in looking forward is make sure that you address what is the cheapest form of energy going forward, and there is no question that is renewables firmed by gas with hydro and batteries. And we have put forward in this election campaign practical policies, including the subsidy for batteries that will assist households, but they'll do more than that as well because it will take pressure off the grid.
 
FERGUSON: So, just, just in terms of look forward, which is what you say we have to do, if those electricity prices are not lower by the time that relief runs out, will you extend energy bill relief?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We have our policies out there, Sarah.
 
FERGUSON: What's the answer to that question?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Our policies are out there, Sarah, and you're aware of what they are because you just put them to me. Our policies are out there that make a difference. And what we are doing is helping individuals with energy bill relief. But at the same time, it is symptomatic of our approach, which is: what are the immediate measures that you can take to take that cost of living pressure off people? But how do you look ahead as well, you know, navigate those turbulent seas while always having your eye on the horizon? Now, the horizon is what we have put in place –
 
FERGUSON: I think I'm just going to stop you there because I will run out of time. It's a complex policy. I think what the listeners heard there is you not quite answering that question, but you're entitled to choose to do that. Let's move on to health care. Your biggest promise on health care is that 9 out of 10 GP visits will be free by the end of the decade. Why should voters believe that?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Because when we tripled the bulk billing incentive for concession card holders, that's the outcome. It's above 90%. We did that in the Budget before last. That was an important measure. It's made an important difference. And when I've gone around to health clinics in places like Bridgewater in Tasmania, I've had the CEO standing next to me saying that is precisely what they will do.
 
FERGUSON: At the same time, the ABC did a survey of 800 GPs. Your story is a legitimate story, but it is anecdotal. The ABC did a survey of 800 GPs, the vast majority of them said that the incentives you're offering are not enough to justify their moving to bulk billing.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Sarah -
 
FERGUSON: Is it within your power to stop doctors charging a gap fee if they don't think it's going to be worthwhile?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Sarah, I’ll make this - I'll put this tip to you. If you did a survey of people in this ABC building and asked them, were they getting enough pay or would they like more? Most of them would say they would like more. The truth is we have tied it to delivering fully bulk billed services. A fully bulk billed doctor will be on - at the moment they were on about $280,000, it will lift their income to above $400,000. It will provide for them a real incentive to bulk bill their patients.
 
FERGUSON: So, when the doctor lobby group say it's not enough, are they just rent seeking? What's going on?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, it’s a – the AMA from time to time, they didn't have rallies in support of Medicare when it was introduced by Bob Hawke. So, you know, what we have here, though, is we've been engaging with the sector and we've been engaging constructively. And what we have is a whole lot of doctors, a whole lot of clinics putting forward clearly their position, which is that they will fully bulk bill and the proof is in the pudding. You asked me at the beginning of this segment, what evidence do you have? Why do you think it's going to rise? Because it has with the previous policy that we put in place for concession card holders. Now we're extending that same principle to 27 million Australians.
 
FERGUSON: Now let's move on to housing because you're promising $10 billion to build 100,000 houses for first home buyers. Is this another off-budget measure, by the way?
 
PRIME MINISTER: It's part of our Housing Australia Future Fund, a similar body in which you create a fund of $10 billion. And what that will do, of course, based on an example that is in South Australia operating very effectively. I visited one of the sites, 110 places, 40 of which are reserved for first home owners, 70 of which will be for the market -
 
FERGUSON: So, when will these homes be built?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we want to get it going. We want to get the legislation going.
 
FERGUSON: So, what's the number? How many of the homes will be built by the end of the decade?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We want to get the legislation passed. We have 28,000 of our Housing Australia Future Fund and Social Housing Accelerator homes are under construction or in planning –
 
FERGUSON: But in these hundred thousand homes for first home buyers, I just want to press you on that.
 
PRIME MINISTER: We want to get it going - well, we haven't passed the legislation yet, Sarah.
 
FERGUSON: So, you must have a projection for when the houses will be ready.
 
PRIME MINISTER: We do. We haven't passed the legislation yet.
 
FERGUSON: What's the answer?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We haven't passed the legislation yet –
 
FERGUSON: But I've heard your housing –
 
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not getting ahead of myself, Sarah –
 
FERGUSON: Well, I've heard the Housing Minister give figures on timing.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm not getting ahead of myself, Sarah. What we are doing is putting in place the most comprehensive housing policy that any government has put in Australia. Whether it’s -
 
FERGUSON: I understand that, you are –
 
PRIME MINISTER: Social housing, first home buyers, whether it be our Help to Buy scheme, which is a shared equity scheme, our Build to Rent scheme to encourage private developers to build rentals –
 
FERGUSON: But if you're a young person - I beg your pardon, if you're a young person trying to get into their first home, which is what this policy is aimed at, this feels so far in the future. Why should first home buyers feel optimistic about this policy?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Because what they should do is have a look. And you could, you could put up some footage on 7.30 of the places that are under construction right next to the railway station there in Adelaide right now, under exactly this sort of program that we’ll deliver.
 
FERGUSON: There was criticism of your 5% loan guarantee scheme, saying that from economists and analysts around the country, saying that it would increase demand. If that happens, along with perhaps some further interest rate cuts, will you be forced to intervene in the market to lower prices?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, we're increasing supply. What we're doing with the 5% deposit, which has already assisted 150,000 Australians into home ownership, is extending the eligibility across the board for that. It essentially means that instead of someone waiting to get the 20% deposit and in the meantime, it always just keeps moving away –
 
FERGUSON: That’s how it - will it cause prices to come down? Because normally supply lowers prices, more supply.
 
PRIME MINISTER: No. What we are doing is increasing supply. All of these measures, all of these measures are about –
 
FERGUSON: And usually that leads to prices dropping.
 
PRIME MINISTER: All of these measures are about increasing supply –
 
FERGUSON: But no drop in prices?
 
PRIME MINISTER: They're all about increasing supply, Sarah. That is what we're aimed at, whether it be home ownership, shared equity, private rentals, social housing –
 
FERGUSON: You're not looking for these policies together to bring house prices down?
 
PRIME MINISTER: What we're looking to do is to increase supply and improve access to housing for Australians in the future. Whether that's the program that we announced today, just today, is about emergency housing for women and children escaping domestic violence. So, we have every level of housing, whether it be emergency accommodation -
 
FERGUSON: But you're not answering, you're not engaging, really, with the question about prices increasing supply under most circumstances leads prices to fall, you’re not looking for house prices to fall?
 
PRIME MINISTER: What I'm looking for is for people to have access to good quality housing, to have the security and life that comes from a secure roof over your head.
 
FERGUSON: Let me put it to you -
 
PRIME MINISTER: Because that's an opportunity, that’s an opportunity to then advance your education of your kids –
 
FERGUSON: No argument with that.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Better healthcare. All of that. That’s my objective.
 
FERGUSON: Let me put the question to you in a different way. So, this is what your Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, said in Parliament in 2017 at the time attacking the Turnbull Government, ‘they are not prepared to pull the most meaningful lever when it comes to dealing with housing affordability, and that is dealing with negative gearing and capital gains tax. As a consequence, they will not do anything meaningful, about housing affordability in this country, particularly for young people.’ Was he completely wrong?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a quote from that you've used from a decade ago what the key is -
 
FERGUSON: Your Treasurer making a clear case.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. He's a terrific Treasurer.
 
FERGUSON: Was he wrong back then?
 
PRIME MINISTER: He's a terrific Treasurer.
 
FERGUSON: Was he wrong back then?
 
PRIME MINISTER: He wasn't the Treasurer back then. He's a terrific Treasurer. And the advice -
 
FERGUSON: He held a position in the opposition.
 
PRIME MINISTER: The advice that we have is very clear. It's very clear. We took a policy to an election in 2019. The Australian people had their say on that in 2019. What we're concerned about is supply. And if you simply do a measure of changing negative gearing, there are two problems with it. One is the issue of supply, and immediately what you could find is an increase in rents for people who are renters. But the other thing that you'll do as well, and something I've been absolutely determined to do, I have two mantras: no one held back, no one left behind. No one left behind is about looking after the vulnerable. No one held back is about aspiration. And I've been very clear that the Labor Party is the party of aspiration.
 
FERGUSON: Can we just clear this up? Are you saying changes to negative gearing and capital gains tax will never happen as long as you're Prime Minister? Or are these measures that you would seek a mandate for?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the evidence is in Sarah, because I've been Prime Minister for this term. There was a scare campaign run before the last election, and we haven't done any of it. What we've done is implement the policies that we have said we would do, which is about supply, increase social housing, increase rental accommodations, increase home ownership, as well -
 
FERGUSON: Yes, but it was the same person in Jim Chalmers who made that statement, that very clear statement about the value to young people in terms of housing affordability of these two tax positions in 2017. It's the same person who got the advice from Treasury last year.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've got our very clear position and it's a clear position of what our policy is. And I'm talking about what our policy is, not what it isn't.
 
FERGUSON: There's a significant generational shift in this election, I think, with 750,000 or so young new voters. Is that why you're spending is it $16 billion to lower HECS debt, to give real benefit to the to 3 million graduates?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We're doing it because it's the right thing to do, Sarah, because of the issues that you've raised, spoken about young people not having a fair crack, having this level of debt, one of the things that we've done is to change some of the regulations for the banks so that they don't take into account HECS debt when they're assessing loan applications. That's an important measure -
 
FERGUSON: Peter Dutton, Peter Dutton amongst others -
 
PRIME MINISTER: The other thing that we want to do –
 
FERGUSON: Yes.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Is to decrease the debt that these Australians have.
 
FERGUSON: Well, Peter Dutton says, and he's not the only one, there's a number of analysts and economists too, who I referred to earlier. They say that this is inequitable, that tradies shouldn't have to pay for a tax break for well-to-do graduates.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Guess what? People who have TAFE have debts as well, and they'll also benefit.
 
FERGUSON: This sounds like an argument -
 
PRIME MINISTER: They’ll also benefit Sarah. That's the important thing. This is just one example of the sloppiness of Peter Dutton, whose first instinct is to oppose on different issues, though he's had to change another position today when it comes to road user charges. His spokesperson yesterday said they wanted them, today they've reversed it. Working from home they've been all over the shop on. We know that they want to do it, but now's not the right time. On EVs, they had three different positions in a week, and one of the things that this election is about is that in times of global uncertainty, what you need is clear leadership and certainty going forward. People can be certain that, yes, their student debt, their HECS debt will be cut by 20%. They can be certain that they'll get access to Free TAFE, they can be certain as well that we’ll continue the aged care reforms. They can be certain we’ll have child care policy as well –
 
FERGUSON: Yes. But let me just come back to this point. Let me come back. I just want to come back to the argument that Peter Dutton is making, because it does sound like his argument sounds like an old Labor argument, or an argument an old Labor hand might have made in the past –
 
PRIME MINISTER: But it’s nonsense –
 
FERGUSON: You're talking about aspiration. Have you and Peter Dutton changed places?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you're the commentator. What I am, my job is to put forward a clear position of what our values are. I think Peter Dutton's values are very different to mine, but also his failure to do the hard policy work. He doesn't seem to understand there that TAFE graduates and others will also benefit from this measure. He isn't supporting our $10,000 incentives for apprentices in electrical and in construction. These are all really important reforms that we've put in place. They've voted against Free TAFE, they call it waste. Free TAFE is not only helping in construction, it's helping in the care sector, in child care, aged care, disability care as well, 600,000 Australians have benefited from it. It'll go under Peter Dutton.
 
FERGUSON: Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Sarah.
 
ENDS