DAVID SPEERS, HOST: I'm joined for his first interview of the campaign by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. Welcome to the program.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning David.
 
SPEERS: So let's get to the promise you're making this morning, making supermarket price gouging illegal. How will this work?
 
PRIME MINISTER: How it will work is after the election, we'll establish a taskforce of the ACCC, Treasury, consumer groups. We know that price gouging is illegal in the UK, in the EU, there are models that we'll look at as well. But people know when they're being ripped off and we want to crack down on supermarkets. This comes on top of the other measures that we've had targeting things like shrinkflation, targeting the false specials that occur where supermarkets put up prices by a dollar, then decrease it by 50 cents and pretend that things are cheaper. We want to make sure that consumers are looked after. This is one of the measures we're taking to put that downward pressure on inflation, which we've been successful at getting down to 2.4 from the six that we inherited.
 
SPEERS: A lot of people, you’re right, feel like they're getting ripped off. But what actually will constitute price gouging? And what happens if a supermarket is found to be price gouging?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We'll fine them. We’ll fine them with heavy fines to make sure that they know that if they're ripping people off, then they're in the gun to pay a heavy penalty for it.
 
SPEERS: And what is ripping people off? Is there a certain amount of profit that's too much?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, people know, the ACCC will examine that. Looking at the overseas examples as well with Treasury, with consumer groups. People know when they're being ripped off, when you have these massive mark-ups occurring so that consumers aren't getting a fair crack.
 
SPEERS: The ACCC did find no evidence of price gouging, though, and yes, prices have gone up in Australia over the last five years. But according to that ACCC report released just over a week ago, not as much as in many OECD countries.
 
PRIME MINISTER: What the ACCC found was that there were examples, but there wasn't a comprehensive ripping off by any particular company. What we want to make sure is that they know that they're being watched. They know that the Government's prepared to take strong action and crack down. We will introduce legislation making price gouging illegal by the end of this year.
 
SPEERS: By the end of this year. Okay, look, lower fuel prices might help grocery prices as well. Transport is a big input cost. You supported the Coalition last time they promised to cut the fuel excise. Why not this time?
 
PRIME MINISTER: You're quite right that they did this just prior to the 2022 budget. You'll remember that left a $78 billion deficit that we turned into a $22 billion surplus –
 
SPEERS: You backed that measure.
 
PRIME MINISTER: That left inflation going up at that time as well. It was a temporary measure which ran out. What we want is permanent change. And that's why the changes that we're putting in place, including, of course the tax cut and then another tax cut, will be permanent. That structural change putting more dollars into people's pockets.
 
SPEERS: But do you accept a lot of people in the suburbs who think ‘I'd much rather have some help with paying for my fuel each week immediately’?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what Peter Dutton said was that often then led to the big oil companies essentially changing their system, and that people weren't better off. That's what Peter Dutton, Angus Taylor, Barnaby Joyce, Bridget McKenzie were all out there opposing this measure. Not in 2022, but during this term. They called it out as not being effective. What we have with all of our cost of living measures, whether it's free TAFE, cheaper childcare, the tax cuts that we are now topping up so that Australians will benefit by $2,500 extra dollars in their pocket, is what's making a difference. Our wage increases, where real wages are increasing. So we want people to earn more and keep more of what they earn. Peter Dutton wants people to work longer for less.
 
SPEERS: I've heard that line once or twice.
 
PRIME MINISTER: You might hear it once or twice more in the next five weeks.
 
SPEERS: What about energy prices, though? Clearly lower energy prices would help those supermarkets, businesses, households, industry. Peter Dutton wants to keep more gas in Australia as part of his solution to this. The Government has already secured some more gas from the big gas exporters. Is there nothing more you can do here?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We secured six times more gas than what Peter Dutton committed to securing on Thursday night.
 
SPEERS: Is it enough?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Peter Dutton opposed the measures that we put in place making the Code of Conduct mandatory, the measures that we put in place having a gas cap, a price cap of $12 and a cap on coal, where we brought the Parliament back you'll remember, David, in December 2022.
 
SPEERS: So why are prices still so high then Prime Minister?
 
PRIME MINISTER: They lost it completely. They said this was socialism in action. ‘We were taking control of the market and it was outrageous.’ They opposed it. What we've done is make a difference. Gas, when we came to office, the spot price was around $30. Today it's $13. $13. It has more than halved on our watch because of the measures that we have put in place. And Peter Dutton can't explain anything about his policies, how it will work, how it will make a difference. All it is essentially, is a search for a distraction from his $600 billion nuclear plan. He mentioned gas a few times on Thursday night. He used the nuclear word just once.
 
SPEERS: We'll leave that for him to defend. For Labor's part you used to have a gas reservation policy. You used to like the idea before the 2016 election. Are you saying no now to a gas reservation policy?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We've actually put in place through the changes that we made to the security mechanism, a system whereby we can direct gas companies to secure domestic supply. We put that in place. Peter Dutton voted against it.
 
SPEERS: Are you saying that is effectively a gas reservation policy?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, effectively it is if it's needed. The Government has the power to do that.
 
SPEERS: And do you need to do more? Do you need to get more gas?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Peter Dutton opposed it. Of course, we have a Future Gas Strategy. We think that the future of our energy supply in Australia is renewables, but backed up by firming capacity of gas, hydro and batteries.
 
SPEERS: Okay, so this is interesting.
 
PRIME MINISTER: That is the future of energy policy in Australia. Not saying ‘we'll stop the rollout of all that investment. We'll promise sometime in the 2040s to have a $600 billion nuclear plan that will provide four per cent of Australia's energy needs.’
 
SPEERS: What you're saying this morning is that you could use the existing mechanism that's there to get more gas, if you need it.
 
PRIME MINISTER: We have supported appropriate gas. We think that gas has a role to play. And just last week I was in Gladstone. Now what Rio Tinto are doing there with its aluminium refinery is to make sure that they're powering that more and more with renewables. But you need that firming capacity, that security, in order to encourage the investment.
 
SPEERS: So you're willing to get more gas from those exporters if you need to.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Of course.
 
SPEERS: Okay. What about –
 
PRIME MINISTER: And the law provides that most importantly. And we've acted.
 
SPEERS: What about your energy plans? The gas, renewables, as you mention it, the household rebate that you extended in the Budget runs out at the end of this year. What happens then? Do prices go up?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we very consciously, David, have provided now three lots of energy relief. The first was in partnership with that gas and coal cap on prices. We provided money for people who are concession card holders. Then we provided a second lot of relief of $300. We're extending that to every household and every small business, of $150. That is dealing with, what you have had is the biggest energy crisis globally since the 1970s. That is something that we have had to deal with on our watch.
 
SPEERS: But I'm asking you, the end of this year, what happens? Do prices go up when that runs out?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We've dealt with that in a practical way. What I'm saying to you, David, is that energy prices, in part are connected with what happens in the globe. What we are doing is providing that support for every household and every small business.
 
SPEERS: So if that international pressure is still there, you might have to extend the rebate beyond this year?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no, what we do is we focus on the Budget, on immediate needs. And one of the things that my Government has done, David, is we've governed in what have been turbulent economic times. We had COVID, we had the long tail of COVID with the supply chain issues, and we had the impact of the war on Ukraine, the impact of global energy prices and global inflation, which hit double digits in some of our competitors.
 
SPEERS: Understand that –
 
PRIME MINISTER: But during that, what we have done throughout our term is to provide immediate support when people needed it in a calibrated way, that has also put that downward pressure on inflation, and that’s been a difficult task.
 
SPEERS: I'm asking, just I think a lot of households will want to know what's going to happen to their power bill and what happens at the end of this year. The Government hasn't produced any sort of modelling or indication as to what's going to happen with energy prices if you’re returned.
 
PRIME MINISTER: What we are providing is $150 relief. We're extending that relief going forward –
 
SPEERS: To the end of this year –
 
PRIME MINISTER: We have said that we'll continue to work with the rollout that's occurring. If you look at the work that's been done, whether by AEMO, the CSIRO, all of the experts, they all say that the future is about renewables, is the cheapest form of new energy, but backed up by firming capacity prices.
 
SPEERS: But what happens to prices at the end of this year?
 
PRIME MINISTER: David, what we have done is to provide that support. Peter Dutton, as a centrepiece of his budget reply, has something that he can't answer any questions on. There's no modelling.
 
SPEERS: I’m asking you Prime Minister, I’m asking you –
 
PRIME MINISTER: There’s no processing, I’ve told you David –
 
SPEERS: Just one more time. Will prices go up at the end of this year?
 
PRIME MINISTER: David, what we will have is that $150 of relief that we're providing for people. Now the third lot of relief, and I remind you that just like cheaper childcare, free TAFE, our tax cuts, all of these cost of living measures have all been opposed by Peter Dutton. And now, extraordinarily, he is going to an election not just having voted against our tax cuts this week. He is saying that he will introduce legislation to increase the taxation rates of all 14 million Australians.
 
SPEERS: Prime Minister, housing is a big issue. We hear it a lot through the ABC YourSay project. This is a big concern for voters, the affordability of housing, people worried that their kids won't have the same standard of living that they've enjoyed. We know you have a list of policies that you've put in place through the course of this Parliament. Will you be offering anything more in this campaign?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you'll have to stay tuned in the next five weeks, David, we'll be rolling out –
 
SPEERS: That's a hint.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll be rolling out a range of policies during this campaign, and you'll see some of those reflected in the pre-election, the PEFO, the pre-election forecast that will take place next week. So we will have a range of announcements before and after then of course.
 
SPEERS: So something on housing next week?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no. Well what we'd do, David, is we'll also be backing in the announcements that we've made already. Bear in mind this, David, the former government didn't bother to have a housing minister for half of the time that they were in office. What we have is plans for increased social and affordable housing. There's more than 28,000 homes that have been either in planning or construction through that fund, through the Housing Australia Future Fund and through our social housing, we have our Build to Rent scheme to encourage private rentals. And we have importantly as well, our Help to Buy scheme that will encourage home ownership.
 
SPEERS: Let's turn to Donald Trump, who is also on the mind of Australian voters. No doubt about it. The US President is calling Wednesday Liberation Day when he's going to announce his next round of tariffs. Any idea yet what this will mean for Australia?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've been continuing to engage constructively with the US administration.
 
SPEERS: What have you found out?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're of course putting Australia's case. Tariffs are an increase in price for the purchases of the goods and services. So they impose increased costs on American buyers. They don't change the price structure here in Australia. We believe in free and fair trade. The US enjoys a trade surplus with Australia. We are pointing that out very clearly.
 
SPEERS: Do you have any idea yet what's going to happen?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have engaged very constructively with the various officials and people responsible in these areas.
 
SPEERS: You tried to get a call with Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago when he announced the steel and aluminium tariffs. Has he, any indication if he's going to call you back?
 
PRIME MINISTER: What we're doing is engaging through officials. What happens at the leadership level consistently is that you have, attempted to get an agreement. If we have an agreement, we will have a face to face or one on one discussion.
 
SPEERS: But you were trying to get one a couple of weeks ago.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll have a one on one discussion, but a couple of weeks ago, the reason why that didn't occur was because the President made a decision to not talk to anyone and to impose this regime on every country, every single country is subject to those steel and aluminium tariffs. They represent a very small amount, US exports, bear this in mind, to put it in some context, US exports represent around about 5 per cent of Australia's exports to the world. The bigger impact on Australia is what the US does right around the world. That is the thing that is causing concern in global economic markets.
 
SPEERS: And your Government.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well you're seeing that around the world.
 
SPEERS: To that extent, your Canadian counterpart, Mark Carney, says the United States is, quote, no longer a reliable partner. Do you agree?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We regard the United States as a friend and partner.
 
SPEERS: Reliable?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We regard the United States as a friend and partner, and we have been able to rely on them for a long period of –
 
SPEERS: Can you rely on Donald Trump?
 
PRIME MINISTER: I believe we can. I've had two constructive discussions with President Trump, and I'll continue to engage constructively.
 
SPEERS: With the prospect of these new tariffs in a few days’ time. Is it helpful for Australia right now for you to be using Donald Trump as a political weapon against your opponent?
 
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not.
 
SPEERS: Well, you've accused Peter Dutton of photocopying policy ideas. Clearly you're talking about Donald Trump.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, am I? Or am I talking about Scott Morrison or Tony Abbott or John Howard?
 
SPEERS: You tell me.
 
PRIME MINISTER: When it comes to –
 
SPEERS: Who are you talking about?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when it comes to the fuel excise, for example, what we saw was the same playbook we saw prior to the 2022 election. A budget, in that case, a budget reply in this case with temporary relief that doesn't provide any further support. Our policy –
 
SPEERS: What about his policies on job cuts?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, sacking public servants.
 
SPEERS: Where's he borrowing that from?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's up to, I'm not the commentator you are.
 
SPEERS: Well, you're suggesting he's photocopying.
 
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not the commentator you are.
 
SPEERS: You're using the words.
 
PRIME MINISTER: But when, well, people will draw conclusions themselves when they see mass job cuts, when he's talking here, David, about 41,000 public servants. He's talking about the 15 people who were working out of a caravan in Hervey Bay, providing support for people in flood relief. He's talking about the extra public servants. We've put $13 billion into veterans’ affairs because there was a queue of 42,000 men and women who had worn our uniform, who weren't getting the entitlements that they deserved, and some of them passing away while that occurred. Now we've got that queue down. He's talking about the emergency management authority that has people right around Australia, that has people right now in Queensland working, helping just as floods –
 
SPEERS: Just to point out to viewers, he has said frontline services.
 
PRIME MINISTER: But it's a nonsense. What does he think people in Services Australia are doing?
 
SPEERS: Can I ask you about –
 
PRIME MINISTER: What does he think people in Veterans Affairs are doing? He has said that Veterans Affairs and these departments are subject to these cuts. There is no doubt that there will be consequences, and we know last time around there were more than 50,000 people. The consultants will be back. The big four accountancy firms will deliver the same public servants that are earning $120,000 will be earning $250,000 working for the big accountancy firms, doing the same thing but sending taxpayers the bill. And we'll be back to Robodebt where people lost their lives.
 
SPEERS: Let me ask you, let me turn to defence spending. It's currently running just over two per cent. You're committed to lifting it to 2.3 per cent in a decade's time. We know the Trump administration wants Australia to reach three per cent of GDP. Are you prepared to go beyond what you've already committed?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we put $57 billion additional defence investment over the next ten years. And what you need to do is not to have a magic figure. What you need to do is talk about the assets that you need. And that's why when we came to office, having replaced a government that had more than $40 billion of announcements with no actual funding there for them, you can't defend Australia on a media release. What you need to defend them on is the purchasing of missiles, the purchasing of mobile HIMARS program of which we've already seen delivered the first couple of mobile vehicles.
 
SPEERS: But can, is it enough –
 
PRIME MINISTER: Mobile vehicles that can deliver high strike weaponry in our defence.
 
SPEERS: Is it enough to defend Australia right now?
 
PRIME MINISTER: We have overcome a circumstance where when we came to office, our naval fleet was the lowest it had been since the Second World War.
 
SPEERS: Okay. But the question is –
 
PRIME MINISTER: But what we are doing is investing. We're investing serious amounts based upon the serious review that we –
 
SPEERS: The question, was, Prime Minister, is this enough to defend Australia right now?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. We are investing in the assets that we need. Now some of them are coming online. You can't make a decision one year and then launch the ship the next year. What we are doing is launching a range of initiatives that we have bought already, those assets. But we're also investing in our manufacturing capacity. We have a plan to use defence manufacturing as well to build up our capability in other areas.
 
SPEERS: Is this one of the reasons why you can't afford more defence spending beyond that? The budget bottom line we saw during the week, yes, you had two surpluses, but then we're going, we're back in deficit and deficits are really for the next decade. Is this why you can't do any more on things like defence?
 
PRIME MINISTER: If you put up a graph of what we inherited when we came to office –
 
SPEERS: We can't keep looking back –
 
PRIME MINISTER: They would have looked, no, look forward David. They would have been red the whole way down. 78. You would have needed to have extended this graph because it only goes to minus 50.
 
SPEERS: This is where are –
 
PRIME MINISTER: We inherited minus 78 and the 2024-25 deficit that currently is $27 billion was almost double that. That was the anticipation.
 
SPEERS: Is that enough?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Every single one of the graphs. Every single one. We have taken forward, whether that be taking big Liberal deficits, turning it into Labor surpluses, or taking very large Liberal deficits and making them smaller.
 
SPEERS: But does that mean it's job done, Prime Minister? Job done –
 
PRIME MINISTER: The job is never done, David. What we have done, and we did it again in this year's Budget, a pre-election Budget that found savings. Do you know how many savings there were in 2022? You don't need a graph for this. A big duck egg. Zero. Not a single dollar –
 
SPEERS: Well, this Budget –
 
PRIME MINISTER: You had expenditure going out the door.
 
SPEERS: You had 2 billion in savings this budget. But your own papers show the net impact of your policy decisions was a cost of $35 billion.
 
PRIME MINISTER: What we had in this Budget was appropriate investment, including cost of living relief at a time where people need it. But it was responsible. This is responsible economic management. Our budget bottom line has improved the circumstances by $207 billion.
 
SPEERS: Let me ask you this. If you do win, will you be more ambitious in fixing the Budget, getting the economy in the best shape Australia can be in to deal with this global uncertainty that we all agree we're facing?
 
PRIME MINISTER: David, you want to just wipe from history the fact that we inherited deficits first year and every year through, and we have turned –
 
SPEERS: Not at all. I’m just trying to ask you what’s coming.
 
PRIME MINISTER: We have already. Well, Peter Dutton has said, look at, if you want to look at future performance –
 
SPEERS: That's what this election –
 
PRIME MINISTER: Look at what we have done. So you can look at what we've done. We've produced two budget surpluses and reduced the deficit. At the same time we're providing tax cuts for every taxpayer. We're providing immediate relief. And at the same time, Peter Dutton stands for higher taxes and stands for cuts. $600 billion he's going to have to find for his nuclear plan because the public, the private sector won't touch it with a bargepole because it doesn't stack up.
 
SPEERS: Prime Minister, before I let you go, do you think you'll win this one?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, I do. I think that Australians, when faced with a clear choice between Labor building Australia's future and providing immediate relief, and Peter Dutton's plan for cuts, will support the Government and will want a positive agenda going forward. Peter Dutton will always appeal to the darker side. I want to be optimistic and positive about Australia's future. Together Australians have made incredible progress and I want that to continue.
 
SPEERS: Anthony Albanese, thank you for joining us at the start of this campaign.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, David.
 
ENDS