SUBJECTS: Labor's $300 vaccine incentive proposal.

CARRIE BICKMORE, HOST:Opposition leader Anthony Albanese joins us now. Anthony, why do we need to pay people when the recent figures put vaccine hesitancy at just 11 per cent, I think it was?

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE FEDERAL LABOR PARTY: Well, we're still last in the developed world for the rollout of the vaccine. We're struggling to get into the top 80 of countries, and we need to get those vaccination rates up. As well, of course, this quarter's likely to be negative. Businesses and workers are really struggling, so providing this reward, this $300 payment, would help to support jobs and economic activity it's needed in the lead-up to Christmas.

BICKMORE: We know incentives have been used overseas during the pandemic but is there any actual evidence that they work?

ALBANESE: Well, they've been used overseas. They've also been used right here, Carrie, by a bloke called Scott Morrison was the Minister for Social Security who introduced ‘No Jab, No Pay, for childcare payments, for Family Tax Benefits, and when he did it he said it was about increasing child immunisation rates. Where's the negative here? Giving $300 to every Australian who is vaccinated will boost economic activity at a time when it is really needed.

WALEED ALY, HOST: Well, the negative seems to be, if you believe a suite of experts, actually, now, that it might have a detrimental effect on vaccine take up. Peter Collignon tweeted this was a bad idea, he made that point earlier today. There's the journal of the American Medical Association which the Prime Minister referred to today in Parliament that said offering these incentives actually has a perverse consequence and recently, just now, Tom van Laer from the University of Sydney, he’s a behavioural expert, made this point; the basic idea is if you start paying people to get vaccinated it actually sends a signal that there must be a reason they're paying and this is somehow risky behaviour and they might want to back out of that completely.

ALBANESE: See, if you can find an economist who says that. Basic economics, and I studied it for four years, speaks about signal-sending behaviour changes. And that's why the Prime Minister introduced no jobs, no pay, sorry, ‘No Jab, No Pay’.

BICKMORE: But Anthony isn't ‘No Jab, No Pay’ different? Isn't that withholding payment in you don't get a jab offering versus people to go get a jab?

ALBANESE: It's exactly the same. It's an economic change in terms of people's income depending upon whether the immunisation has taken place or not. What we need to do is to have discussions in every bowling club, in every community, about people getting vaccinated. And the idea that you would somehow not have an incentive, if people are saying, "I got my $300. Have you got yours? Have you been vaccinated yet?" Promoting that discussion in communities will drive change.And we need to do everything at our disposal.

ALY: Let me quote from the journal of the American Medical Association. "Financial incentives are likely to discourage vaccination, particularly among those most concerned about adverse effects. Instead, contingent non-financial incentives are the desired approach." It may well be the conversations in the bowling
clubs around the country will be quite different from the ones that you imagine.

ALBANESE: I don't think that's right at all, and that's why the US administration of Joe Biden is going down this track, why various European governments have gone down this track. While there are a range of studies out there showing that economic incentives do provide that support for take up.

ALY: Which experts did you consult in forming this policy? Were there any specific ones that have said this has worked and this will work in Australia.

ALBANESE: Well, I've just told you the countries that are rolling it out. We consult with a range of people, Waleed, and we always consult about our policies. We have put this forward in a constructive way. Every time an idea gets put forward that's not the Prime Minister's he rejects it out of hand, like he did wage subsidies, like he did the idea you have five or six vaccines, which we were saying last year, like he has
national quarantine facilities. This is a Prime Minister who only ever supports his own ideas even though this one is perfectly consistent with the idea that he himself implemented when he was Social Security Minister.

BICKMORE: Alright, we appreciate your time tonight.

ALBANESE: Thanks very much.

ENDS