SUBJECTS: Labor’s $300 vaccine incentive proposal; vaccine rollout; lockdowns; wage subsidies; JobSeeker.

AVANI DIAS, HOST: Thanks for coming back on Hack. 

ANTHONY ALBANESE, LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY: G'day. Good to be with you.

DIAS: So in 30 seconds, Opposition Leader, can you explain how this $300 payment would work? 

ALBANESE: Really simple. Every fully vaccinated Australian would be eligible. We know who's getting vaccinated because it goes through the Medicare system. And the payment would be made both for those people who've already been vaccinated and those who do between now and December 1. 

DIAS: So the Government has said that an incentive like this is really expensive, that the research shows it won't work. What research do you have to back this policy up?

ALBANESE: Well, I note that Scott Morrison, when he was Social Security Minister, introduced the ‘No Jab, No Pay’, which provides an economic incentive for people if they're going to get childcare benefits, or if they're going to get Family Tax Benefit A, they need to get their kids vaccinated. So it worked then. It was something that Labor supported. It's working around the world. The Biden administration supports this in the US, they support it in Europe. And any economist will tell you that if you want to change behaviour, then this is just one thing. We're not saying this is the only thing. We're saying though, if we're going to get to those targets, then we need to use every weapon at our disposal. And the Chief Medical Officer, earlier this year, said exactly that. He said that we need to have incentives there to get people vaccinated.

DIAS: But what are the numbers that you've got there, Opposition Leader, to say that we need that many vaccine hesitant people over the line? Because that's obviously what this is trying to attract, right? 

ALBANESE: Well, the numbers are that we're running last in the developed world at the moment in terms of the rollout of the vaccine.

DIAS: But what are the numbers in terms of people who are in that middle ground, who want to get the vaccine and aren't doing it and need that $300? 

ALBANESE: Well, there are various numbers that show there's an element of vaccine hesitancy out there. There's been a range of studies undertaken in the UK, around the world, about how you increase the support for vaccines. This has worked in terms of the Government's own policy they introduced in a few years ago now when Scott Morrison was Social Security Minister to increase immunisation amongst children. 

DIAS: We get that Scott Morrison did that a while ago, Anthony Albanese. And I see that there is some research here to back it up. But the issue that we have found from young people is that there is very little access to these vaccines. I want to read you this text. Someone says, 'Everyone I know, young and old, all want to get vaccinated, no one will say no to a free payment. But I truly do not think the issue is people not booking in. It's the availability of appointments and vaccines for us'. Someone else has said, 'Mate, I don't need $300. I just need access to a safe vaccine'. Can you tell us what you want to do in order to fix that access for young people? 

ALBANESE: We've got to increase supply. We know that the two jobs that the Prime Minister had this year were the rollout of the vaccine and national quarantine. They're the two things we've got to fix. We haven't had enough supply. We didn't do enough deals with enough pharmacy companies to get enough vaccines early enough.

DIAS: Anthony Albanese, I am keen to know what your idea is. We know that happened in the past. The issue that we're hearing from young people is, 'How do I even book in to get this kind of vaccine?' So what's your plan for that? 

ALBANESE: I get the frustration. I'm frustrated too. And I speak to people in my electorate who are frustrated, who can't get appointments. But increased supply is coming. But there needs to be, we need to do everything that is possible. We need to talk to our friends from the United States. We need to not miss opportunities that were there for the Israelis who had extra vaccines, Pfizer vaccines, that we're about to expire. They gave them or sold them to South Korea. We could have had that opportunity. We need to reach out for vaccines.

DIAS: Opposition Leader, with respect, the Government has said that we are getting more Pfizer before the end of the year. What I am asking is how do young people access and book the vaccine? That's the issue we're facing here. What is your plan for that?

ALBANESE: I know it's an issue. I'm not the Government. I can't fix appointments. 

DIAS: But you can push for a better system. So do you have a plan for that?

ALBANESE: Absolutely. We should be rolling out vaccines, for example, where people work. We should be rolling out vaccines, for example, for retail workers, whether they work at Woolies or Coles or somewhere else. There should be vaccines available where people work. We should be rolling out vaccines at universities where people study. We need to do everything at our disposal to make sure that people have access to vaccines. But at the moment, the problem is, we haven't had enough vaccines. This isn't something we're saying in hindsight. This is something that we were saying last year. 

DIAS: Anthony Albanese is our guest. He's the Opposition Leader. And I do want to put this other text to you. Someone says, '$300 for a vaccine is an insult. I've lost somewhere between 40 to 50 per cent of my income with COVID'. What is Labor pushing for in terms of support for young people who've lost work?

ALBANESE: Well, we've pushed for the JobKeeper payments to be returned for those people who have lost income. And the Government resisted that. They now have, for some areas, some payments, but certainly not enough. And we're also continuing to push that those people who work in businesses where they aren't directly impacted by the lockdowns, but indirectly impacted, should also be eligible. We also, from the very beginning last year, said that casual employees shouldn't miss out on support. And that something that has had a huge impact on young people. We also said that the arts community needed to be given support as well. And of course, we've seen a failure to look after people in sectors like the arts, like university workers as well. We'll continue to push for it. But it's something we argued for and we'll continue to do so. 

DIAS: A lot of people getting in touch on this. A few people supporting the cash. 'Yes, I'll take $300' says one person. Another person says, 'I'm a young person from regional New South Wales at low risk, I'm waiting for Pfizer but would for sure get Astra for $300'. Another person says, 'If it was $3,000 not 300, I would book in tomorrow'. Anthony Albanese, that is an interesting point, though. The Grattan Institute has said their proposal would be a lottery so there'd be a million dollars each week for every person who gets vaccinated would get into a draw and then they would pick that out every week. Should we be putting in something more urgent instead of $300 by 1st of December? 

ALBANESE: Well, we want people to get vaccinated. And I would encourage all of your listeners, if they're eligible, talk to their doctors and get whatever vaccine is available. I think that's what people should do. That's what the health advice is. And they should follow that health advice. But the lottery idea is something that is happening in some states in the United States. We need any incentive possible. But we've come up with and we're promoting $300 for everyone who's eligible if they get fully vaccinated to receive that payment. I think it is much fairer than the idea of a million dollars going through a lottery system. 

DIAS: Look, a million dollars sounds great. But one thing that I'm keen to hear your thoughts on is that the Federal Government has called this $300 idea an insult to the millions of people who have either gotten vaccinated or are planning to. What do you say to that? 

ALBANESE: Look, that's just absurd. This is a Prime Minister who any idea that isn't his own, he rejects. He rejected wage subsidies completely last year. He said it was a dangerous idea before the queues formed outside Centrelink offices. And then eventually we got JobKeeper, but too late. Too late and too little because people have missed out.

DIAS: But what do you think about the claim that it is insulting that people need that cash to get vaccinated when people are already doing it?

ALBANESE: We're not saying people absolutely need it. Some people obviously have been vaccinated without this incentive. We're not saying this is the only mechanism. What we're saying is we're following the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and, might I say, what is in the Prime Minister's own four-phase plan, where as part of phase B it says that we need to have economic incentives there. And to quote the Jerry Maguire movie, which some of your listeners would have seen, 'Show me the money'. It works in terms of changing people's behaviour. It's just one vehicle. And by the way, at the same time, it's economically sensible to provide some stimulus given the economy is really struggling. The economy is going backwards.

DIAS: I am keen to get your thoughts on the economy there, because obviously you say that $6 billion will be spent back in the economy. But what economists have said is raising something like JobSeeker back to the rate that it was last year when we were at the height of the pandemic, now we're at a worse stage in places like New South Wales, they're saying JobSeeker needs to be returned to that rate to stimulate the economy. Will you back that?

ALBANESE: Well, there's no doubt that when you pay additional money to people who are unemployed, they spend it. Just as if you pay money, $300, overwhelmingly it would be spent rather than saved. Some people might save it. It's up to them what they do with their money.

DIAS: But Anthony Albanese, do you support giving welfare to people who are really struggling in outbreak areas around the country right now and returning JobSeeker back to that rate? Because economists say that will actually increase jobs and make sure people stay in jobs as well. 

ALBANESE: Well, JobSeeker can't keep people in jobs because it's paid to people who don't have jobs. That is the point.

DIAS: Sure. But what economists say is that it will actually stimulate the economy to ensure other people are kept in jobs because there's enough spending. It's the cycle. So what do you say about those issues regarding JobSeeker? 

ALBANESE: What I say is that what we're proposing will help support jobs because people will spend this money. It will be $300 that will be paid out to people before December 1. So it's at a time when it's needed when the economy is really struggling. Look, I understand it's really tough for people to survive on JobSeeker. I, as a Member of Parliament on a much higher income, get that people do it tough. And I would like at some stage in a future Government to be able to make further increases. There was an increase that we called for and we supported.

DIAS: But do you support one now? I mean, when people really need it most? 

ALBANESE: I'm supporting the policy that we announced today. And what I don't do, with due respect, is to make announcements about expenditure on the run, during a radio interview. We are announcing that this would make a substantial difference, including a $300 payment that would go to every Australian, whether they were in work or not, whether they were citizens or not as well. This would importantly go across the board, as opposed to the cherry-picking that has been there for support, whereby people who are Temporary Protection Visa holders didn't get support, people in the arts and university sectors missed out as well. 

DIAS: Look, Anthony Albanese, I'd prefer if you did make some announcements on radio on the run. That'd be more exciting.

ALBANESE: I am sure you do. Maybe sometime down the track. And certainly, some of our youth policy, this would be precisely the venue to do it. 

DIAS: Look, we do need to move on. But I appreciate you coming on Hack. 

ALBANESE: Thank you very much. Always great to chat.

ENDS