RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Anthony Albanese is the Prime Minister of Australia, of course, driving around somewhere in Melbourne. Good morning.
 
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, Raf.
 
EPSTEIN: Our audience have heard Carol's story about her house being cleaned out and taken over by strangers. What did you think about what happened to it?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is outrageous. I clearly am on Carol's side here. The idea that having to deal with the loss of a loved one would have been traumatic enough without finding someone essentially taking over what was her late father's property.
 
EPSTEIN: We had a chat to him. The Senate candidate, Jordan van den Lamb, who's running for the Socialists. He put the address up there. We don't know for sure if that's the reason the house got taken over by someone. But what would you say to him?
 
PRIME MINISTER: I think he's a disgrace.
 
EPSTEIN: Anything else?
 
PRIME MINISTER: It's quite clearly just reprehensible self-indulgent behaviour.
 
EPSTEIN: Okay, PM, let's move on to this request that Russia apparently made to Indonesia. Apparently they wanted to base long range Russian bombers about 1,500 kilometres from Darwin. Do you know if Russia actually made that request?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the point here is, Raf, that I don't discuss diplomacy or national security through the media. What occurred yesterday though, was that Peter Dutton verballed the Indonesian President. He said this: did the Prime Minister know about this before it was publicly announced by the President of Indonesia? There's no such statement from the Indonesian President. It is incredibly reckless. It just shows-
 
EPSTEIN: Why reckless?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Because it endangers, you cannot verbal the leader of one of our major friends in Indonesia. It's an extraordinary thing to do.
 
EPSTEIN: PM, can I interrupt? I just want everyone to know what we're talking about. I've got, Peter Dutton was saying you should have known about this before the media did. If I can just play the statement you're referring to.
 
[Excerpt]
 
PETER DUTTON, OPPOSITION LEADER: Did the Prime Minister know about this before it was publicly announced by the President of Indonesia? And what is the Government's response to it.
 
[Excerpt ends]
 
EPSTEIN: So why, why is that reckless? He's just trying to –
 
PRIME MINISTER: That’s the point. It wasn't announced by the President of Indonesia. Indonesia are having nothing to do with such a plan. They have made it very clear. He has fabricated a statement by the President of Indonesia that simply did not happen, based upon goodness knows what, but based upon something that simply wasn't fact. Now, when you deal with our international partners, what you need to do is to have a considered approach. Deal with them in a respectful way, not verbal the President of our nearest major power, just to the north of Australia, based upon some media report. One of Peter Dutton's problems, just one of them, is that he always dials things up to 11. He always shoots from the hip. And when you are either the Prime Minister or the alternative prime minister of this country, what you need to do is to have a considered approach to our international relations. I have had to spend this term repairing relations with friends like France, friends in ASEAN, in the Pacific. And what Peter Dutton has reminded people of is just how reckless he can be.
 
EPSTEIN: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is on 774. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. PM, if I can return to housing. Actually, before I ask you about your housing policy, the situation we got into with Carol is because Jordan van den Lamb says squatting in vacant properties has to happen because the crisis is that severe. Do you think we're in a housing crisis?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Look, we need to do much better when it comes to housing policy and housing supply. We're suffering from decades of not having enough support and that is something that my Government is attempting to address. The Liberals dug Australia into a hole on housing. Under Labor we're building our way out.
 
EPSTEIN: Is it a crisis? Would you call it a crisis?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'll use my own words, which is there's a massive under supply of housing that has been many, many years in the making. We need to build more homes. I don't think anything excuses the behaviour of this Senate candidate, I've got to say. So, I don't want that link to be drawn because nothing excuses that behaviour. But we need to do more, which is why my Government has a $43 billion plan of homes for Australia which is concentrating importantly on building supply.
 
EPSTEIN: Can I focus on that?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Unless you have more supply, you can't address it.
 
EPSTEIN: Can I focus on building more homes? Your five per cent home deposit scheme, so guaranteeing the loan for every first home buyer. That's a hell of a lot more new buyers into the market very suddenly, many more buyers than houses. Doesn't that just push up prices?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, because what we're doing is also addressing supply. We're addressing supply through our Housing Australia Future Fund, through our Social Housing Accelerator. And I'm visiting some homes here in Melbourne this morning that have been built under our Social Housing Accelerator. That has led to around about 700 homes in, just in Victoria being built, which has made a difference -
 
EPSTEIN: I'm not doubting it makes a difference PM, can I interrupt?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Our Housing Australia Future Fund has 28,000 under supply.
 
EPSTEIN: The maths. You're saying there'll be 30,000 new home buyers because of your deposit scheme. There's no way your Government's building 30,000 new homes. The maths is simple, isn't it? There's many more new buyers as opposed to new homes.
 
PRIME MINISTER: No, yes we are Raf. In fact, we have 28,000 homes either under construction or planning just under our Housing Australia Future Fund.
 
EPSTEIN: That's not going to happen in a year.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Our Build to Rent scheme. Our Build to Rent scheme is expected, from the Property Council of Australia and the Master Builders, to result in well over 100,000 new properties being built for private rentals. On top of that, what we did on Sunday was announced our $10 billion plan to assist first home buyers get into housing in partnership with state and territory governments. I visited a site in Adelaide on Monday morning that is being built under the South Australian scheme that we've modelled it on. Now there's 110 units being built there, 40 of them reserved for first home buyers. There's a bit of cross subsidisation of that occurring because the project stacks up for first home buyers only being able to bid for a portion of the properties because of the involvement of the state government and the granting of land which is there. Yesterday in Melbourne, I visited, in the northern suburbs in Reservoir, three homes that have been built on a site where there was formerly one. They'll be ready to move into in a month's time. We are getting on with the business of increasing, building supply that is so important. But we're also providing that support for first home buyers with the five per cent deposit. Importantly, what it doesn't do, and I guess this is the flaw in your argument there Raf, is that it doesn't change the deal for a buyer, if Raf wants to go into a home –
 
EPSTEIN: But there'll be more buyers, like none of those schemes you suggested are going to produce as many homes as you will produce new buyers. There are more buyers than there will be new homes.
 
PRIME MINISTER: I just went through, Raf, a figure much greater than 30,000 –
 
EPSTEIN: Not all happening in one year.
 
PRIME MINISTER: I just went through that with you Raf, just then. And what's more that people who are eligible for this scheme, first home buyers, there's 150,000 Australians have benefited already from this scheme by extending it out to more people. They still have to go through the same APRA provisions with their bank. They still have to be able to afford the loan. Which is why what has occurred is only three people out of 150,000 have defaulted. All it means is, instead of them continuing to try to save for a deposit, to get that 20 per cent deposit, meanwhile they're paying rent to pay off someone else's mortgage. They're paying off their own mortgage.
 
EPSTEIN: Okay.
 
PRIME MINISTER: That's the big difference here. It doesn't mean that –
 
EPSTEIN: Okay. PM, I'm going to interrupt again if I can –
 
PRIME MINISTER: - point in your argument is that there aren't, there aren't less homes as a result of that. People need homes. The difference is they'll be paying off their own mortgage, not someone else's.
 
EPSTEIN: You do get points for saying Rezza correctly. Next time it'll be Rezza, not Reservoir. But the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is on 774. Something else that's come up a lot, PM. Peter Dutton, like many parents, is saying he's going to help his son buy a house. What you're offering voters, let's accept everything that you listed there, that can't compete against the bank of mum and dad, can it? Like that's still a huge distorting factor. Doesn't that prove that you're tinkering and not making a fundamental change? The bank of mum and dad's going to still going to help more people?
 
PRIME MINISTER: The fundamental change that we're making, Raf, is there's only one political party at this election is putting forward a plan for supply as well as demand. If you have just a demand side answer, that is you're just subsidising, which is what they're doing with their plan for mortgages to be able to be tax deductible, that will be subsidised by every other taxpayer, including renters out there, subsidising someone else to pay off their mortgage. Now that doesn't address supply at all. And that's the big flaw in the system. The game changer is concentrating on supply. It's not as sexy as some other solutions put forward by the Greens political party from time to time, but it's a real answer to a real problem.
 
EPSTEIN: For the first time we know where you're flying and where you're going to be at the end of the day. You're going to be with David Speers in a studio in Sydney debating Peter Dutton. So, it is on this station at 8:00 and it's on the news channel as well. It's free and it's going to air. What's the secret to winning a debate?
 
PRIME MINISTER: I think having the right policies and the right arguments and we have a record of –
 
EPSTEIN: You've got to spit them out properly though, don't you?
 
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think we have a good record that I'm proud of. Wages up, inflation down, interest rates coming down, a million jobs created.
 
EPSTEIN: Do you practice little barbs to try and get under his skin?
 
PRIME MINISTER: No –
 
EPSTEIN: No? I would.
 
PRIME MINISTER: I stick to the policy framework. Peter Dutton dials it up to 11. I don't need to encourage that. That's just who he is. He dials everything up. And that's one of the problems, I think, is that you need the right temperament to be Prime Minister.
 
EPSTEIN: We'll all be watching and listening tonight. Thanks for your time. Enjoy Melbourne.
 
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Raf.
 
ENDS